Fix the ELO system

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Shardbearer

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Senior Member

12-14-2012

I feel like one of you is punching the other right now. Oo


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IS149080d6605e20d28653a

Senior Member

12-14-2012

There is always one zealot flaming any suggestion for changes, becouse " it is perfect as it is".
Its almost explaining why people were burning eachother for saying anything against the church in the past.Even if it was saying that earth isnt flat, or using herbs that church haven't acknowledged to heal.

Same attitude killed thousands of people.
Big brother is saying something is good so they feel safe to just go with the flow and hurt someone from behind of big bro's back.
At least in game noone is being hurt by others ignorance , resistance to innovationand simple ill-will.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

12-14-2012

I've made you look like a complete moron every time you post anything that resembles an opinion. And now you are suggesting it's because I don't like change. Can't you just admit that you are ****ing garbage at the game?


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IS149080d6605e20d28653a

Senior Member

12-15-2012

You dont even know my Eu accounts name, not to mention seing even one of my games, but you state opinion aobut how i play.
None of your opinions might have any value at all, if you talk about things you have absolute no knowledge about.
You proved yourself how ignorant, and agresive you are, all you care about is being negative towards someone .


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Selcopa

Senior Member

12-15-2012

Show a replay. You talk about a broken system and you are good but there are too many non winnable games. Here's the thing. I've gone over at least 150 replays for other players(not even my own games) I can safely say under 10 of them I actually felt were unwinnable. I've challenged tons of players to actually show me all the impossible games. At most they send 2 games, both where they are winnable(usually 1 is a 4v5).

So I've sat here reviewed games and can easily say you has no idea what you are doing at this game. Why don't you show some replays of your awesome skills.

EU replays work for me too


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IS149080d6605e20d28653a

Senior Member

12-16-2012

You completely missed the point.
Point is it shouldnt be win/ loss evaluated but individual players input in those games, as its not a TEAm ranked but solo.
No matter what would be the way to assign elo gain/loss people would always get to a point when they loose 50% of games.
Thing is if their elo changes would depend on their own actions it would feel much better, and less frustrating in those instances when they do good, but others **** it up.
Obviously there would be also games where its them doing bad and they'd loose more than now.But it feel more justified and undeniable.

ITs not so damn hard to put in any kind of distinction betwen individual players in each game, only reason to not to is riot laziness in this regard.
Putting such system would NOT change individual players placement in ranking,as it would affect all the others same way, but it would make it FEEL better and more justified.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

12-16-2012

This is where your lack of understanding of game theory really shows.

ANY SYSTEM that awards elo for actions that are not winning or losing, Creates sub optimal play. This isn't an opinion. This is simply how game theory works. If you decide "doing this action awards x points" even if it's just 1 point. Players will go for that action instead of doing the action that is more likely to net the team a win.

At this point your next post would be to suggest that we just associate a point value to every action that contributes towards winning. Ill save you a post and reply to this.
This thought process comes from a low level of understanding of league of legends. Its simply impossible to account for all the intangible actions(such as positioning) that are absolutely essential to winning a game. However produce no tangible effect. Other than increasing your likelihood of winning.

Quote:
no matter what would be the way you assign elo people would always get to the point where they would lose 50% of their games
You just made that up. And it's just wrong. If you have a player whose overall skill places him at 1400. Under your idea of individual rewards he could be below 50% winrate. If he does actions so every game he gets 2 extra points. That means his losses lose him 10 points. And wins gain 14, if he plays 20 games wins 10 loses 10, he will be +40 elo. But because he isn't skilled enough to play at 1440, he will fall back to 1400(and this isn't an arguable point. He WILL fall back. If he's a 1400 player it doesn't matter what bonuses you give him. He will always gravitate to 1400 until he improves). However he will lose 4 more games to get there. Meaning he will maintain 1400, but win 10 lose 14, below 50% winrate.

You talk about "oh it would feel better if it were my way" besides the fact that your way just sucks. You know what feels way better? Winning. Learning to win. Applying new concepts and that resulting in a win. Instead of focusing so much energy into a flawed system that won't fix your problems. Why don't you focus on getting better? If you put half the energy you used on this to your mechanics. You wouldn't even complain about elo you'd be winning so much.

I'm still waiting on your replays that show your godlike eu play. And the bad teammates that keep you down in this "broken system" and let me ask you. Do you really feel like you can compete with players 500 elo better than you? If so you are delirious, and if not. You really aren't that far away from whatever elo you should be at, so it's tough to argue the system is broken


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IS149080d6605e20d28653a

Senior Member

12-16-2012

system might simply allow players to give 1 bonus and 1 negative for players they think deserve it in relation to other participants in that game.Viola, you have individual evaluation of performance that is not impacting the game itself.
Furthermore it would encourage players to keep trying even when other lanes are failing.Big problem in solo q is people giving up too fast and just not trying anymore, becouse no matter what they do they wil lloose/ gain same amount.
Would there be bonus trading? sure.But everyone can trade only one.Players positively/ negatively affecting the game would still be assigned more points than those trading.
Duo queues could be simply stripped off this privilage.

As for 50% wining.Its fundamental of current elo system, that is even said by riot.
In fact it is fundamental for any elo system.Problem is its not designed for evaluating individual participants in team games.
You yourself said that player that should be in higher elo win more than 50% games, which implies if they are right elo they win 50% games.
He might have different result than 50% on his way to that elo.Or short term results.But long term outcome of games in right elo will always be 50%.

This condition would not change if you make any personalization in elo gain, But at least someone suiciding 15 times in 20 minutes would loose more than someone making less severe mistakes.

As for replay.You already stated your opinion haveing absolutely no knowledge about how i play, now you want to see gameplayes to just find anything that would make absolutely random statement feel valid.
Its forming a thesis and than looking for any facts that would make thesis seem plausible.
To make what you say anything but a trolls blabbering you'd have to at least preserve appearesences that you form a thesis from a facts ;P - too late for this.


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TheWhaleChaser

Junior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
This idea of an imaginary roadblock at the starting is a common misconception.

Consider the journey of a players who hovers the 1200 bracket(as I once did) now look at it from the view of say 100 games or even 200.

Regardless of whether the other players are smurf, dcs, ragers or whatever. Imagine all their attributes are quantified and given a number, that number is their elo..

Because 1200 is the starting point, there is a higher frequency of players who have not yet arrived at their destined elo, so there will be some 900s some 1300s a few 1900s and everything in between. But for the most part, the bulk of players are going to fit in that 1000-1400 range. This factors in all this ragers and dcs, as their chance of ruining a game is factored into the elo they belong but have not completed their journey to

Now over 200 games. This 1200ish player will float around. He's gonna go up. He's gonna go down some. Games he gets a smurf on his team or the enemy gets a 900, he's gonna get wins, when the opposite happens he will lose.

Now these games will cancel eachothers elo gains, he might only notice games where he loses but statistically they will be washing eachother out*1, as more games are played, there will be more situations for this 1200ish player to make an impact, opportunities to capitalizes on 1100 players or inferior 1200 players.

As our hero moves up the ladder, there will be less and less of these inferior players for him to take advantage of, while the number of superior players will remain close to the same. Players that deadlock with our hero will go up. Without a constant supply of bad players to boost his elo*2 he will drop back to a level where there are more easy targets.

*1: in reality, statistically you are more likely to be playing against a smurf than you are playing with one on your team, this is because you fill a slot the smurf can't take. However this also applies to those 900 elo players. You are more likely to be facing against them, furthermore, there are significantly more low elo players than smurf, so ultimately over time you will face enough low elo players to overcome the deficit of getting less smurfs on your team, even to the point that if you calculated ( frequency bad opponents + freq good teammates ) - (freq bad teammates + freq good opponents) you would result in having a position elo gain
*2 because you naturally will rise in elo without improving your skill due to having less slots on your team for bad teammates, you will always fluctuate between going up, and reaching the point where you become the bad teammate(in which case you will always have a bad teammates, you. And you will move back down until enough bad players push you back up, or you improve)
I love the look you took at this. More people need to read this. The statistics say everything.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

12-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacyf View Post
system might simply allow players to give 1 bonus and 1 negative for players they think deserve it in relation to other participants in that game.Viola, you have individual evaluation of performance that is not impacting the game itself.
Furthermore it would encourage players to keep trying even when other lanes are failing.Big problem in solo q is people giving up too fast and just not trying anymore, becouse no matter what they do they wil lloose/ gain same amount.
You now have a system that involves appeasing players who as you said before, Suck and are holding you down, they don't have a good opinion of what skill is. They simply aren't qualified to be able to award elo to someone.

Quote:
As for 50% wining.Its fundamental of current elo system, that is even said by riot.
In fact it is fundamental for any elo system.Problem is its not designed for evaluating individual participants in team games.
You yourself said that player that should be in higher elo win more than 50% games, which implies if they are right elo they win 50% games.
He might have different result than 50% on his way to that elo.Or short term results.But long term outcome of games in right elo will always be 50%.
You are right. When you are at your correct elo you will have essentially a 50% chance of winning
However It is apparent that you are not understanding how the elo system works and what the consequences of adding elo for actions not winning or losing, let me explain.
Your elo is a reflection of your skill. If you are a 1400 skilled player. You will always gravitate to 1400. When you are at 1400 you have a 50% chance to win. But your elo is being boosted artificially through non winning/losing actions. But you are still a 1400 player which means you still will gravitate to 1400, however it will take you more losses to get to 1400, so by the time you get back to 1400 where you belong, you will have lower than 50% winrate, once you make it to 1400 again. You will have a 50/50 chance of winning THAT game. However you will have lost more games than you won

Quote:
As for replay.You already stated your opinion haveing absolutely no knowledge about how i play, now you want to see gameplayes to just find anything that would make absolutely random statement feel valid.
Its forming a thesis and than looking for any facts that would make thesis seem plausible.
To make what you say anything but a trolls blabbering you'd have to at least preserve appearesences that you form a thesis from a facts ;P - too late for this.
Oh I know you are terrible at the game. From your complaining about your teammates, to your lack of fundamental game theory concepts, even if you had amazing mechanics(I have a strong suspicion you don't. But even if you did) you still would be making tons of elementary mistakes due to your weak knowledge of the game.

I offered you to prove me wrong. I'm 100% confident that you belong very close to your elo just based on your statements. But you are welcome to show yourself to be the exception to the 150+ replays I've gone over, hell if you show me wrong. I'll publicly apologize and throw in a $25 riot card. All you have to do is show me a couple of games where you played well but your team held you back and the games were unwinnable had you played better