Spectre's Cowl is too expensive

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The5lacker

Senior Member

12-11-2013

I'm not talking in terms of money-in to stats-out, that's fine. It's a cost efficient item with a nice passive. I'm talking in terms of its purpose: It's meant to be a medium-low cost anti-mage item for bruisers having trouble dealing with an AP champ top. That's a good role that, unfortunately, Spectre's Cowl can't fill due to two reasons.

1. It's more expensive than a Hexdrinker, which is in general a better anti-mage item for most bruisers, seeing how the best way to deal with a mage is to kill it.

2. Since it builds out of two of the more expensive Basic items in the game, it's much more difficult to buy in chunks.

Add in my own personal dislike with some parts of the item (Items that gain stats from nowhere seem poorly designed to me), and it seems to me like the Specter's Cowl line could use a bit of a tune up.

Spectre's Cowl
- Null-Magic Mantle (400g) + Ruby Crystal (475g) + Rejuvenation Bead (180g) + 95g = 1150g
+ 30 Magic Resist
+ 200 Health
+ 5 Health Regen
- Unique Passive - Spectral Gift - Grants 10 bonus Health Regen for 10 seconds upon being damaged by an enemy champion.

This change makes Spectre's Cowl much more affordable early game, letting it build out of more easily afforded pieces while maintaining most of its impact as an anti-harassment item. By itself, it has an effective gold value of 1310, giving it an efficiency ratio of around 1.14, which is good without being excessively so for a low cost item.

Now, this change slightly alters the build paths of Spirit Visage and Banshee's Veil, but only for the recipe cost. However, I feel there could be some tweaks made to those items as well.

Spirit Visage
- Spectre's Cowl (1150g) + Kindlegem (850g) + 850g = 2850g
+ 50 Magic Resist
+ 400 Health
+ 15 Health Regen
- Unique Passive + 20% Cooldown Reduction
- Unique Passive - Spectral Gift - Grants 15 bonus Health Regen for 10 seconds upon being damaged by an enemy champion.
- Unique Passive - Increases all forms of self-healing by 20%.

This change reduces the MR of Spirit Visage a tad and lowers its base Regen but grants it the Regen passive from Spectre's Cowl (now a named Unique Passive, as it should be.) Simply put: SV grants way, way too much stats up-front. 3664 gold value of stats in fact. This change reduces that raw stat value down to 3348: Still great, but not quite so excessively so.

Banshee's Veil
- Spectre's Cowl (1150g) + Negatron Cloak (720g) + 1280g = 3150g
+ 80 Magic Resist
+ 250 Health
+ 15 Health Regen
- Unique Passive - Spectral Gift - Grants 30 bonus Health Regen for 10 seconds upon being damaged by an enemy champion or upon the Spell Shield absorbing an enemy ability.
- Unique Passive - Generates a Spell Shield that absorbs the next enemy ability that would be used on the champion. This shield regenerates after not taking damage from an enemy champion for 25 seconds.

Lets be blunt: Banshee's Veil should be THE anti-mage item. It is the MR Randuins and Frozen Heart, it is the bane of mages everywhere, it should be capable of completely ruining any mage's hopes at bursting someone down even without the shield: Granting 55 MR was a joke for it. In addition, its build path and even stats were far too close to the VASTLY superior Spirit Visage: The only time I ever saw a Banshee's Veil was out of desperation. While items can certainly be bought for this reason, it shouldn't be for just a passive: Randuins isn't bought solely because of the Slow it grants. However, given how powerful an item it is and how potently it counters mages, it really shouldn't be available for under 3k: It should be worked for.


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BaronVonSlicey

Senior Member

12-11-2013

Ok, at first I was thinking that I feel Spectre's is in a decent enough spot, but I can understand how others would feel differently.
Then for Spirit Visage I was thinking that giving Spirit Visage some more passive power, rather then flat stats would be kinda nice, although as it stand it doesn't need really need a buff, and adding the passive onto it is a very minor one, but overall a decent suggestion.
And then I saw the Banshee's Veil changes. I figured it was slightly too reasonable of a post to begin with, and there was gonna be SOME sort of catch to it being a bad idea. And I figured right, I guess.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

12-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonSlicey View Post
Ok, at first I was thinking that I feel Spectre's is in a decent enough spot, but I can understand how others would feel differently.
Then for Spirit Visage I was thinking that giving Spirit Visage some more passive power, rather then flat stats would be kinda nice, although as it stand it doesn't need really need a buff, and adding the passive onto it is a very minor one, but overall a decent suggestion.
And then I saw the Banshee's Veil changes. I figured it was slightly too reasonable of a post to begin with, and there was gonna be SOME sort of catch to it being a bad idea. And I figured right, I guess.
And as usual you can't explain WHY it's a bad idea, you just say it is and assume you're right.


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BaronVonSlicey

Senior Member

12-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The5lacker View Post
And as usual you can't explain WHY it's a bad idea, you just say it is and assume you're right.
Well, I figured everyone else's votes would have said enough, but I'll offer you my explanation.

1) It already offers the most magic resist in the game, tied only with Spirit Visage, at 55.
Mages are countered by health. This is an explanation you have probably read before, but as I'm giving my explanations I'll say it again here.
A mage, even ones with a consistent source of damage (Cassiopeia, Karthus, etc.) still rely on burst rotation thanks to cooldowns, and do not have permanent access to their damage thanks to mana (again, with exceptions). Compared to an ADC, who have no mana resource for their basic attacks or, really, a n imposed limit such as cooldowns (AS is obviously a factor, but you simply cannot attack slower then .7 times per second as an ADC), and so adding 500 health to your pool will hardly stop a marksman who can deal 250 damage to you per second forever, but will certainly hurt a Mage who misses out on killing you by 300 health and then cannot deal any more damage to you for another 3-8 seconds as you simply walk away from them.
This is why we have high armour items (Frozen Heart at 95, Thornamil at 100, Randuin's at 70), while the highest magic resistance items are at 45-55, because health is a lot more of a counter-stat to Mages then Marksman. This is also why armour items have many passives on them that inhibit auto attackers (Warden's Mail AS slow, Randuin's MS slow, Thornmail's damage reflection), while magic resist items have barely anything similar (Spectre's Cowls very small healing passive, and Banshee's shield). I'm gonna leave Guardian Angel out of this for the most part, because its in its own class and has both resistances.

What this means:
Warmog's + Frozen heart isn't that more effective against a marksman then just getting Frozen heart would have been. Getting Warmog's and any form of magic resist is effective versus a Mage, as its a lot harder to whittle you down through all your health, especially when you have limited resources to deal damage with.

2) Force of Nature (and meta golems).
Force of Nature gave +76 MR, +40 HP regen, +8% MS, and Warmog's current passive (with higher numbers), as I'm sure you know.
Here, we have an item with +80 MR (slightly more then it gave), +250 health (which only serves to counter magic damage even more), +60 health regen in combat (certainly, not as good for sustain at overall, but...) and then instead of MS + a bit more regen, we have the ability to block an entire spell.
Now, we put that into a world where - a) FoN's passive is on another, health stacking item, and b) Where Spirit Visage is an actually useful item, and suddenly, there is no difference to the Meta Golems of old. Banshee's and Spirit Visage only share a passive that grants +15 hp regen on the weaker version, so they can stack quite easily, and Warmog's synergises with the huge amount of MR you have and the huge amount of health regeneration you have.
(After some basic calculating - at 3500 health (Base health + 1650 from these items, easily done) at level 18, the health regeneration from these items alone is +72 out of combat and +132 in combat.)
This is basically the same as what you could achieve as a bruiser in Season 1, except with even more magic resistance thrown in on top.
In other words, Mages would become a lot more useless again. Bruisers would become the dominant force on the rift again, thanks to their practical immunity to magic damage, and Mages would not be able to deal with it. Being able to get +80 MR on your first item is ridiculous, especially when it doesn't have the 'late game good only' passive that FoN had with its health scaling.

Probably enough of a rant for now, but if you have anything else you feel I need to talk about, feel free to say.


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VDragon7

Senior Member

12-11-2013

I would say 65 or 70 for the mr on BV, because 80 is a bit much magic resist for an item that also blocks an ability, and regen.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

12-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonSlicey View Post
Well, I figured everyone else's votes would have said enough, but I'll offer you my explanation.

1) It already offers the most magic resist in the game, tied only with Spirit Visage, at 55.
Mages are countered by health. This is an explanation you have probably read before, but as I'm giving my explanations I'll say it again here.
A mage, even ones with a consistent source of damage (Cassiopeia, Karthus, etc.) still rely on burst rotation thanks to cooldowns, and do not have permanent access to their damage thanks to mana (again, with exceptions). Compared to an ADC, who have no mana resource for their basic attacks or, really, a n imposed limit such as cooldowns (AS is obviously a factor, but you simply cannot attack slower then .7 times per second as an ADC), and so adding 500 health to your pool will hardly stop a marksman who can deal 250 damage to you per second forever, but will certainly hurt a Mage who misses out on killing you by 300 health and then cannot deal any more damage to you for another 3-8 seconds as you simply walk away from them.
This is why we have high armour items (Frozen Heart at 95, Thornamil at 100, Randuin's at 70), while the highest magic resistance items are at 45-55, because health is a lot more of a counter-stat to Mages then Marksman. This is also why armour items have many passives on them that inhibit auto attackers (Warden's Mail AS slow, Randuin's MS slow, Thornmail's damage reflection), while magic resist items have barely anything similar (Spectre's Cowls very small healing passive, and Banshee's shield). I'm gonna leave Guardian Angel out of this for the most part, because its in its own class and has both resistances.

What this means:
Warmog's + Frozen heart isn't that more effective against a marksman then just getting Frozen heart would have been. Getting Warmog's and any form of magic resist is effective versus a Mage, as its a lot harder to whittle you down through all your health, especially when you have limited resources to deal damage with.

2) Force of Nature (and meta golems).
Force of Nature gave +76 MR, +40 HP regen, +8% MS, and Warmog's current passive (with higher numbers), as I'm sure you know.
Here, we have an item with +80 MR (slightly more then it gave), +250 health (which only serves to counter magic damage even more), +60 health regen in combat (certainly, not as good for sustain at overall, but...) and then instead of MS + a bit more regen, we have the ability to block an entire spell.
Now, we put that into a world where - a) FoN's passive is on another, health stacking item, and b) Where Spirit Visage is an actually useful item, and suddenly, there is no difference to the Meta Golems of old. Banshee's and Spirit Visage only share a passive that grants +15 hp regen on the weaker version, so they can stack quite easily, and Warmog's synergises with the huge amount of MR you have and the huge amount of health regeneration you have.
(After some basic calculating - at 3500 health (Base health + 1650 from these items, easily done) at level 18, the health regeneration from these items alone is +72 out of combat and +132 in combat.)
This is basically the same as what you could achieve as a bruiser in Season 1, except with even more magic resistance thrown in on top.
In other words, Mages would become a lot more useless again. Bruisers would become the dominant force on the rift again, thanks to their practical immunity to magic damage, and Mages would not be able to deal with it. Being able to get +80 MR on your first item is ridiculous, especially when it doesn't have the 'late game good only' passive that FoN had with its health scaling.

Probably enough of a rant for now, but if you have anything else you feel I need to talk about, feel free to say.
So then by reducing its Health and increasing its MR, it'll counter mages just as much!

Wow, it's almost like I *gasp* TOOK THAT INTO CONSIDERATION.

If a tank buys a Warmogs, Spirit Visage, and Banshee's Veil, mages SHOULD be reduced to a crawl. That's what stacking MR does. This Banshee's costs 500 more gold than FoN: You have to take item costs into consideration when you start spouting nonsense about being OP.

The only reason it's downvoted so much is because people like you are butthurt and decided to "get back at me" by mindlessly downvoting everything I post with the barest of reasing.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

12-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDragon7 View Post
I would say 65 or 70 for the mr on BV, because 80 is a bit much magic resist for an item that also blocks an ability, and regen.
Frozen Heart and Randuins both hard counter Marksmen: Banshees exists to hard counter mages.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The5lacker View Post
The only reason it's downvoted so much is because people like you are butthurt and decided to "get back at me" by mindlessly downvoting everything I post with the barest of reasing.
Well, until you're capable of arguing like an adult, people are going to feel the need to treat you like a child.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

12-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
Well, until you're capable of arguing like an adult, people are going to feel the need to treat you like a child.
Okay, arguing like an adult time.

Banshee's is the game's anti-mage item. There are other MR items to be sure, but because of the passive it grants Banshees is designed solely for countering burst mages and harassment. That is its purpose.

To this end...can anyone give me a reason it shouldn't have the most MR in the game? Other than "Well FoN had lots of MR and it was broken!" Because that's not an actual argument, that's a cop out. FoN was broken because it granted tons of MR, insane out of combat sustain, and MS, which meant that tanks could safely engage on mages who were, at the time, more or less unable to deal with them. All that for 2610g. That's a rather insane mess, and it was rightfully removed.

Now, the Banshee's Veil I designed doesn't have a lot of those problems. It has lots of MR, yes, but hardly an unbelievable amount: 80 is perfectly fair for a 3150g item. It doesn't have the obscene out of combat sustain of FoN, it doesn't have the MS, all it is is a spell shield that also grants boatloads of MR. There is absolutely nothing inherently overpowering about that.

Factoring in the gold value of its base stats, FoN granted 2960g worth of stats for 2610g, not factoring in the MS or the %Health regen passive. Comparatively, Banshee's Veil would grant 2800g worth of stats for 3150g, not factoring in its Spell Shield and regen passives. That's fairly normal for a high tier defensive item. A bit below average, actually. Randuin's grants 2719g worth of stats for 3000g not counting its passive or active, Iceborn Gauntlet grants 3475g worth of stats for 3250g, Frozen Heart grants 3344g worth of stats for 2900g (Though the mana granted is of niche use for both of them), and even Spirit Visage on the MR side grants a whopping 3664g worth of stats for 2750g. That's absurd, and that's not even factoring in the self healing passive.

My point is saying I'm a child who flips tables and all that isn't entirely accurate. While I do get frustrated, unlike some people I actually try and back up my arguments with factual information and stat calculations. I do actually put work into these you know.

The Credible Hulk uses sound reasoning and factual evidence to back up his arguments. Do you have a counterpoint, or are you just going to call me a child again after not reading my wall of text because you don't have the time to form an actual argument, you just get your kicks off of insulting people who're honestly just trying to improve the game and the forums.


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BaronVonSlicey

Senior Member

12-12-2013

Ok, 5lacker.

I can give you a reason it shouldn't have 80 MR. Because Riot, over the last year or more, has spent most of their MR item balancing removing high-MR numbers. I mean, feel free to tell me you know more then Riot in this regard and all, but I'm pretty sure they have reasons for the stuff they do. Oh, and a shield that negates any cc they can use on you - also as good for initiating as 8% MS. Sure, your item is more expensive, but it also grants more combat stats.
If 80 MR was fair on ANY item cost - it would exist. You seem to forget that the fact that these sort of items do NOT exist is a point in of itself.
And I'm sorry Teal called you said that to you, but you do get worked up a bit too much, and when you say things like "The only reason it's downvoted so much is because people like you are butthurt and decided to "get back at me" by mindlessly downvoting everything I post with the barest of reasing." when its literally only your first post that is downvoted (the one that people use as a general indicator of how they feel to any OP's main ideas, and is, surprisingly, NOT a personal attack), it sort of gets annoying to deal with.


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