@Morello, IF you had your time again, how would you redesign DARIUS??

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LightEntite

Senior Member

01-20-2013

If you go into a fight with weak people vs Darius they're just gonna snowball the enemy team into an rapid dunk spree.


If anything about Darius needs to be changed? It's removing the speed from hemmorage. The new change proposed by the Riot team member seems to fix this by giving the slow to an active skill.


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GohanSmurf

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Senior Member

01-20-2013

Here's my thought: Darius without his E is far more balanced, maybe, just maybe, even under-powered. So if you took away the pull on his E and made it have a passive effect of his bleed instead, you could change the passive to something that would nearly substitute as a gap closer.


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Hakaishi

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is basically my "keep him the same but adjust numbers" plan, so we agree there.
Darius has always been a nuisance whether for his own or opponent team...

Instead of merely adjusting numbers, why not make him less of a carry-starver? Change his ultimate to always go on cooldown - slightly similar to another condition available on release, if the target dies within 0.5s (new time will be decided by balance team of course), his ultimate resets. His ultimate should consume all stacks and leave none to avoid the target dying from hemorrhage.

For 1v1, it will remain the same, only difference is the spell order, that is to ult 1st then a normal hit or any other spell.

That way the carries could deal the finishing blow while his ultimate resets, if he deals the killing blow, that will be his last, too bad; I believe this would be better for the teammates.


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HidingOverHere

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Senior Member

01-20-2013

I think the 10 stack idea is good. Its nearly impossible to get, however who said you needed 10 stacks to do anything? If Darius was made in a way which 5 stacks was powerful enough to make an impact the rest is just bonus and adds to skill ceiling. Only those who are lucky and skilled enough will be able to bring out max power and I like that idea.


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KiStorm

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Morello it is very difficult to count stacks in a lot of situations, especially with focus peels.

This entire emphasis seems to be on his team-fights and while I am aware Teemo top will destroy him potentially and taking other fighters is a risk, I'm actually comfortable with him where he is now in fact, I enjoy fighting Darius.

While his gameplay is a threat, his ganks deadly and being caught out means death, it's basically the same as having a Maokai Jump you with a Combo AP, not a lot of counterplay than Cleanse and for Darius there isn't a lot of counterplay other than kiting.

While the important part is laning against him and often a select few Champions need to be taken to prevent snowballs or destroy him, this is a huge part of game play already, there isn't a lot of itemsation that is strong against him, it's more about picks but League is like that with a lot of Champions.

I have no qualms with Darius, however in favor of reworking him I think, even with monitoring icons or overhead displays of stacks, without having a glaring large digit, during a chaotic fight, with the amount of stacks you are suggesting, it may be rather difficult to actually make relatively quick decisions or check stacks in time.

I don't play a lot of heavily co-ordinated skype games although often have huge well timed plays occur but in the fray of non-commital trades or those kind of fights where people scatter, re-initiate, bait, camp in brush temporarily etc, Darius would quickly lose track of stacks in more fast paced skirmishes with quick disengage/re-engages without a big number over their head and it seems like knowing or counting stacks is more of a theme for balance and skill than a big number and 10 stacks seems a bit hectic.

If I had World of Warcraft type mods showing cooldowns customly positioned, showing numbers of debuff stacks etc it would make some situations very very easy or make your reactions far more decisive and effective and without adding a better overhead system of icons, estimating damage etc may be difficult for Darius and adding them is basically holding his hand however looking at one character with 7 over their head, one with 3 and one with 2 might distract you from being able to check HP or even recognize their Champion as quickly, you'd be looking at numbers before you looked at HP bars a lot of the time or even looking at the fight.

Darius doesn't need to be nerfed but Apprehend has been a bit buggy, casting from his original position whilst he is in the process of being knocked back and the animation has only just triggered, it means Champions like Vayne can't even go near him and whilst he is a fighter can engage on her, whereas Tanks are more for countering Carries, Assassins and Burst mages or even bruisers, it seems Darius is favoured for countering them above stronger picks because of his Interrupt mechanics, Tristanas Jump is interrupted, Ezreals Arcane Shift, Caitlyns E, Vaynes E causes her to be dragged with him if timed wrong and on top of this his ultimate follows them even with a dash/flash.

It seems a bit silly that a knockback doesn't interrupt a cast seeing as that's the basis for knockups/knockbacks.

You can't flash, you can't skill, Ezreal is the only Champion who can really cast when disabled but Darius can apphrehend which seems unfair and promoted the banning, complaints and passive play against him whilst being a spell interrupt in itself causing an imbalance in the force, an uninterruptable that interrupts everything but Ezreals ulti. The skill is not classed as unavoidable but it literally is, I've seen his E cast when he is dead, it literally creates an independent axe animation that pulls you to him regardless of where he is, whether he got CC'd within 0.00001 seconds of beginning cast and I don't think changing everything else but this will balance him, it'll just make him weak with a super strong initate/zone skill and not much else going for him.

Don't Nerf Darius buff Riven.<


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Madkhatz

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Darius is a joke, he's not that great of a champ.

Take any thing with a poke, and it shuts him down early.

Teemo, khazix, kayle, malphite, hell even talon poops on him.

Just play safe, keep your lane warded and it's a clean up fest.

Me personaly I take. a tear first, and lots of pots, then I just boss him out of lane with pokes.

Khazix works great on him.

Evolved W, you can farm him, if he comes in jump out, stealth out. If he's low, flash jump, ignote W, Q dead.


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Madkhatz

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Why do people hate darius, he's so kiteable.


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NewbieDuck

Senior Member

01-20-2013

guys darius is op nobody picked him at iem :|. real talk he just gets kited nobody really plays him anymore esp after the defensive mastery change so he no longer gets free move speed.


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Tulfrir

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
Dang 10 stacks would be hard to count lol; i guess in that situation if i see 5 or more im out


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KiStorm

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulfrir View Post
Dang 10 stacks would be hard to count lol; i guess in that situation if i see 5 or more im out
Causes confusion for both sides but think of the Darius.