@Morello, IF you had your time again, how would you redesign DARIUS??

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Dzanio

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.
Considering that slow and duration have an inherent synergy you probably don't want to buff both per stack; a 2 second 80% ms and slow is reasonable for a single target ability considering the relative difficulty of maintaining ~10 stacks on a single target and the cd on the ability.

Alternatively having the slow decrease over the duration i.e. Lee Sin's e or Lulu's q might be a good idea, however these champions have historically also been troublesome to balance.


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XNoodleMuncher

Senior Member

01-18-2013

what about being kited? GG


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XNoodleMuncher

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Attack speed Darius GG


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Shadedluck

Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).
So then, theoretically, it shouldn't be that hard to get 10 stacks on everyone. If I read Blood Soaked Blade correctly, you could get 10 stacks on a team with Blood Soaked Blade in 2 cooldowns. If Darius starts out by Apprehend, gets 4 AA (assuming he has a 1.0 attack speed) and BSBs, now everyone in the fight who got hit has 6 stacks. Now AA again twice on somebody, which should be easily feasible in 5 seconds/the current cooldown of decimate, and that's 8 stacks. Now anyone who gets hit by that BSB has 7 stacks plus their 5 stacks from the first decimate, leading to 10 stacks. Leave the ult the way it is, true damage on 10 stacks, and if it kills resets.

This build causes him to be a more skill based player, rather than just a steamroller.

Also, if you want to make him have more utility, at 10 stacks his bleed can do true damage. This will help him take out tanks, or whittle down the adc/ whoever he has to. I agree with the idea that if Darius builds full tank, there is no reason he should be power housing enemy teams with his ult because it does obscene amounts of damage.

EDIT: I see the problem now, the stacks on the people he isn't auto attacking drop off before the next BSB comes up. Maybe increase the bleed duration to 7 seconds and adjust the values to reflect the change?


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AmoreRispeTTo

Junior Member

01-19-2013

i would make his ult have 2 activations,
1. when you first press r it reveals everyone on the map (like tfs ult)
2. it is a targeted global ability which can reach anyone from anywhere.
refresh on kill/assist/or if it hits them


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IS17950c5e7a0344f6b3010

Senior Member

01-19-2013

please,for the love of god not Morellos hands on Darius


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R3coil

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Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadedluck View Post
So then, theoretically, it shouldn't be that hard to get 10 stacks on everyone. If I read Blood Soaked Blade correctly, you could get 10 stacks on a team with Blood Soaked Blade in 2 cooldowns. If Darius starts out by Apprehend, gets 4 AA (assuming he has a 1.0 attack speed) and BSBs, now everyone in the fight who got hit has 6 stacks. Now AA again twice on somebody, which should be easily feasible in 5 seconds/the current cooldown of decimate, and that's 8 stacks. Now anyone who gets hit by that BSB has 7 stacks plus their 5 stacks from the first decimate, leading to 10 stacks. Leave the ult the way it is, true damage on 10 stacks, and if it kills resets.

This build causes him to be a more skill based player, rather than just a steamroller.

Also, if you want to make him have more utility, at 10 stacks his bleed can do true damage. This will help him take out tanks, or whittle down the adc/ whoever he has to. I agree with the idea that if Darius builds full tank, there is no reason he should be power housing enemy teams with his ult because it does obscene amounts of damage.

EDIT: I see the problem now, the stacks on the people he isn't auto attacking drop off before the next BSB comes up. Maybe increase the bleed duration to 7 seconds and adjust the values to reflect the change?

I see what your getting at and 10 stacks should not be difficult to get to if he is in the team fight. However, depending on his ultimate, if he is able to get to 10 stacks in those 3-4 seconds because of BSB then he would be ulting away (considering damage from other champions on the team) and therefore still being able to easily Ult the team while building mostly tank items. But also in doing this because the BSB would be the main way to get his stacks up, would this not make laning a bit more difficult not just for the aspect of counter-play but also for the effects overall in the first 8-10 levels? Also in doing this it will help him to choose whether to open with it, or to wait until after he has stacks on the opponents to use it, and again with the greed aspect you stated earlier that if he uses it too early then get away before he gets his stacks and they are gone, but if he uses it too late he may not get as many people making it less effective.

Also another idea comes to mind, to make it more "skill-based" so to speak, if the Apprehend ability were to add a stack on the heroes that collide when pulled, e.g. Darius pulls 2 heroes currently affected with stacks, enemy heroes take an additional stack because he pulled more then one. This would increase his team fight abilities and also require you to land those fantastic grabs and reward you for doing so, but not over power you in the lane. Say even if the jungle comes to gank and you have stacks on one person, it would not apply to this because BOTH do no have stacks on them. This would also make the jungle choose the timing on his ganks more carefully so as to not unintentionally get his partner killed due to adding unnecessary stacks.

Another question I would like to ask is if Darius is pushed to 10 stacks and BSB is working as I am reading it, would it be beneficial to have his passive scale with his level, e.g. instead of flat 5 secs overall maybe do a 5/6/7 seconds? He levels making it so it not "easy" to get the stacks but as people start building HP then it might give him that boosts he needs in teamfights and may help him to spread the love of his bleeds around a bit easier, if everyone is in position he should not be able to just WALK up to the carry, but unfortunately it happens and if he is able to do that I believe that he should be rewarded in a way for that as well.


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Frost Archer

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It would be. That's why you shouldn't get it all the time - this exact feedback (and our mistake in being too quick to react to it) results in the Darius on live, who has little play/counterplay.
Morrello. I take back everything I said about you not knowing how to balance.


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Carus

Member

01-19-2013

Not sure if this has been said or not (I don't want to read through 30 pages), but how about this:
The ult is changed from true damage to physical damage. Bleed can stack up to ten times
From stack(s) of 1 through 5, damage increased by twenty percent per stack - how it is now.
From stacks of 6 through 10, twenty percent (per new stack ) of the damage is turned into true damage.

Hope I explained it well (feels like I didn't word it correctly)


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CL Lolshock

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Darius does already have counters in Teemo, Urgot, and Kennen. I don't know what you guys are saying it's hard to counter play. He just needs more gank-ability. It's hard to gank a Darius because he has a lot of AOE and can just sweep through opponents. I feel as if his ulti shouldn't have an auto reset, it should be something like Katarina's passive, where it gets a cool down of like 30 seconds. This would be much better, and would balance out the uses of his other abilities because it can't be constantly used in conjunction without his ult. Have you noticed, Darius is pretty weak before 6? It's because he doesn't have his ult, by making him sit through a 45 second cooldown if he gets a kill he's not going to rip through the entire team, but he also going to be able to get a couple kills like a normal champion would.

And what we really need for Darius counter champ wise is just another good jungler that has decent range, like Fiddle, and another ranged top. Personally I like to use Cait Top against Darius because she just out ranges him, he can't farm. If you're good enough at last hitting, you can even XP deny. If he aprehends, she uses her net. She can trap top bushes and all ganking bushes, so he can't just wait for her to come by and jump her. And then you can have something like a support and Teemo bottom.