@Morello, IF you had your time again, how would you redesign DARIUS??

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Trylobyte

Senior Member

01-18-2013

I'm noticing a lot more Darius QQ since Darius Bot was filed into the co-op rotation. You guys think a player Darius is bad, now imagine one that NEVER wastes an opportunity to ult and ALWAYS gets the kill with it.


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XunicorntwinkleX

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Senior Member

01-18-2013

I love how the Riot Staff responds to the community like this. Never seen any other game staff as willing to answer questions like Riot.


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Azele1982

Junior Member

01-18-2013

i would half the damage of his ult and make it double when he reaches 5 stacks and also put a 8 second cd on kill.. and make those bleeds physical?

or if we were to keep the dunking design his ult should deal physical only and then test from there for a few weeks then play with numbers..

the thing is (from my perspective) when i play darius and enter a team fight is by the time my focused target (usually..)gets dunked others have about 1 - 2 maybe 3 bleeds on them and most of the time i will hit them once then dunk again for the kill he just hurts so much even without full stacks so that brings me back to my first suggestion... its not a problem to 5 stack 1v1
but they are many champs already countering him and it comes down to fix his team fight damage more imo as he can kill anything bellow 1/4 easy and if u calculate being 3-4 guys its tremendous damage in such a low amount of time ignoring resistance.


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nMooSe

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
My god... Darius was balanced at one point...


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ZaganJustice

Senior Member

01-18-2013

I think 7 or even 8 stacks is a good number
10 is very impossible (not sure if proper english, but you get the point)
as for the crippling strike change, I think the cdr was bad and it should always have been a slow dependent move
and blood soaked blade looks a bit too overpowered in some scenarios and too underpowered in others; I don't really see a problem with decimate (seeing as how half the darius's I see don't even abuse the outer ring mechanic), so I think it should stay the same
as for the speed buff and armor pen, I've never really understood why he got passive armor pen or a speed and think they should be gotten rid of completely (unless his ult no longer does true dmg, in which case the armor pen should be attached to the ulti instead of apprehend). Perhaps the armor pen can be replaced by a flat ad bonus.

that's my two cents


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Karmic Fallout

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is basically my "keep him the same but adjust numbers" plan, so we agree there.
I appreciate that you took the time Morello. I believe it is a shared sentiment that having someone that is working on the game addressing our concerns is alleviating on many fronts. There is however a problem and I am at a loss to deal with it.

Darius, quite simply, is annoying. I hate seeing him in a match with or against me. It honestly does feel like he is over-powered every time I am faced with playing around him. Yes, I understand that statistically he falls off at higher levels of play. That does not actually mean anything however. How are the lowly "noobs" like me and my ilk expected to play a game where we are constantly forced to handle an aspect of it that saps away the enjoyment of the product unless we dedicate even MORE time in a game mode (ranked or draft) that is accompanied by an escalation in the already negative and savage nature of the included community. I play almost every day.

Tell me, please. What am I expected to do to continue enjoying the game as I have for the past couple years if there is a constant road block to that enjoyment. Scratch that. It is not a road block. It is some active force that extracts enjoyment, replacing it with frustration impotent frustration at that. I have no way of venting that negative emotion. There is no justice to it. He has been out a decent length of time and his negative impact on my game has only grown while everyone is just sitting around waiting for the data to come in.

What is worse, his character attracts some of the most horrid players, attitude wise. They are just so bloody cocky, rude, and often times antagonistic. Reporting them gives no satisfaction since I neither am granted awareness of outcome of the Tribunal judgment nor escape from the inevitability of having to deal with it again.

Granted, this is only what I get from my experiences. I in no way assume that what I am forced to deal with is the entirety of the community nor a large chunk of it. What I am saying is that of the negative experiences I have to deal with on a daily basis, Darius is of the most common. He is a prevalent motif in my time spent in The League (him and AP Teemo, but he is just annoying).

I am just so god damned tired of having to deal with him. Please fix him. Not next week or next patch. Now.

Why is it that in a large majority of the matches I play, someone is complaining about Darius being "OP"?

Please. Give me, give us, something to alleviate this ever growing dissatisfaction; at least a declaration of the relative Soon-ness of changes OR your intent to not change him. I would rather not keep investing my money and time in something that is increasingly causing me more and more grief.

That is not some juvenile threat. I just want to be clear in how these experiences are urging me to react.


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ZaganJustice

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trylobyte View Post
I'm noticing a lot more Darius QQ since Darius Bot was filed into the co-op rotation. You guys think a player Darius is bad, now imagine one that NEVER wastes an opportunity to ult and ALWAYS gets the kill with it.
oh ****, there's a darius bot now??


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Xenolithium

Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMoose14 View Post
My god... Darius was balanced at one point...
And it looks like he had a learning curve, even a small one.

I find it difficult to believe that when Darius was released, he was meant to be difficult to play. It's not like Riot sat down and was like "Well, let's make a champ for people who have a vast understanding of this game, and only good players will be able to play well with."

Darius was intended for first timers with maybe a month's worth of play time.


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Heartx4ttack

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Senior Member

01-18-2013

My problem with Darius is that he takes almost no skill to play. You can completely rip Darius in half during the laning phase and if his team was remotely competent, he would be able to pull off double or triple kills in team fights despite being a few levels behind sometime during the game and start snowballing from there. No matter what, Darius will have a point in the game where he can just destroy the enemy team no matter how bad his start was and the only way to win was to hope your AD carry would get strong enough and was skilled enough to carry the game.


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Ketzrix

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob View Post
This design would not work with the rest of leagues design. Fights can and often are decided in 2 seconds. Think about all the wombo combo ults that instantly slay 1-2 people on a team. The rest of the teamfight is one team running and clean up.

Thus for champions to compete in todays league of legends they have to have a strong effect in the first few seconds. The buildup to a 10 stack passive does not happen outside of bruiser versus bruiser fights which no longer last as long due to the armor penetration changes.

Darius is not too strong for this meta. He does exactly what he needs to do, punishes staying near him in a timeframe that is competitve with the rest of the cast of champions.
10 stack max is not ridiculous. Not at all.

1) Current 5 stack= grab, auto, W, auto, Q. That happens VERY fast, and now he has passive speed bonus. If your champ does not have a dash or some really strong CC you can't escape. Don't say "Flash" cause chances are the Darius has Flash as well.

2) You don't HAVE to have max stacks to make use of your Ult. 10 stacks just means that you made a foolish decision and now are going to get smashed. 5 stacks, 7 stacks, probably still good enough to use still.

3) So what if most champs burst out their power in 2 seconds. We want variety! As an avid Kayle player, I know that there are counters to Burst reliant champs, so perhaps a sustained battle champ will fit for other styles.