@Morello, IF you had your time again, how would you redesign DARIUS??

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TheSandWhale

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Skanky View Post
Therein lies the issue. Unless you're playing a select few characters, you can't outplay him. Because he's faceroll easy to use and counters every single melee who doesn't have a combination of burst, cc, AND a disengage (or can't just shrug off his damage and slap him around, i.e. Malphite). On the flipside, any ranged who can kite him and has an ability they can use blind to keep him out of the bushes absolutely rolls him. It isn't a skill matchup, it's a "counter for free win or don't counter for auto lose" match up, which isn't balance at all.

Also, even if you do counterpick him with anybody other than Malphite, it puts tank/initiator duty squarely on the jungler's shoulders, which could screw your team's comp if the jungler already picked. Two people being pigeonholed by a choice made by one person on the other team hardly seems fair.
Still skill fight after 55 ranked games with darius top averaging 10 kills a game I have only lost lane to a diamond nidalee. So many of my 'counters' failed because I simply outplayed them.


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MaingoSeven

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallans View Post
What if at 10 stacks, Darius can auto-kill the enemy champion with his ult? Regardless if they have 5 hp left or 1000000 hp. I'd be really afraid of that.
Make it remove anivia passive, GA passive, zilean ult, everything. Then it MAY be worth the eternity spent stacking against some niche team comps.


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SpaceDink

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
Morello, it seems like this would be better with Darius being manaless. It seems like he would be relying on his abilities to stack the larger hemorrhage cap, and the barrier from spamming his ultimate are the stacks, and not mana.

Right now I know that prolonged fights threaten to make Darius with no mana, often only able to do one or two ultimates. That goes against the idea that Darius should be able to dominate prolonged engagements. With enemies requiring more stacks, that is more mana spent on abilities to reach his potential.


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Instincts05

Junior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloquid View Post
You like taking it up the ass don't you.
He sure does but the only ideas I've heard so far to make Darius fair is...
1. His ultimate, after every kill the cooldown is refreshed but will deal ()% less each time.
2. His ultimate will deal true damage but the bonus damage from the hemo stacks on his ultimate will deal basic AD damage instead of true damage.
3.Reduce either his % increase on his Criplling Strike if there aren't any stacks of Hemo on the enemy and will only deal 200% when the enemy has 5 stacks of Hemo on them.
I don't play Darius seeing how you can counter him easily but people keep complaining. These are the few ideas I've seen so far that have been mentioned and might be the only good nerfs. If you think this isn't 'enough' then just go buy Darius if you think he is so broken. Doing anything more then this will make Darius a useless champ throughout the game.


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Fulgr1m

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Senior Member

01-17-2013

I get that you want to add more counter play to Darius but I am worried that you could be losing the awesome feeling people get from playing him by going through with these changes. I mean I love playing him in a good match up and dunking people in team fights, it's honestly the main reason I love playing him although I realize this isn't the best for the person on the other side. But you already said you would keep the ult refreshing in tact which is in all honesty the really big thing about Darius, so in the end this will hopefully keep the feel he has right now.


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LordNer0

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Just nerf him and let the QQers win again, i don't either like Darius but i'm not QQing every single time at GD asking for nerfs.


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Turb0

Senior Member

01-17-2013

"Make no mistakes"


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type1Rush

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
I can haz 0.0

That sounds WAY fun to play, honestly..


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MisakiTakahashi

Senior Member

01-17-2013

I love how most of this thread is people saying "But Morello, if you do this then Darius will take skill to play!"

And Morello just responds "Yes little duckling, that it would. Why don't you go learn a champ that doesn't cause aneurysms for anyone who has to play against him if you don't like it then?"


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Learnding

Senior Member

01-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
YES YES YES.
The rework on the Q, W, R would work marvelously.