@Morello, IF you had your time again, how would you redesign DARIUS??

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Exocist

Senior Member

01-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It would be. That's why you shouldn't get it all the time - this exact feedback (and our mistake in being too quick to react to it) results in the Darius on live, who has little play/counterplay.
Maybe adding that crippling strike gives 2 stacks or hemorrhage instead of 1 or apprehend is changed to do something about hemorrhage too?

My mind is blank at the moment.


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

01-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
This design would not work with the rest of leagues design. Fights can and often are decided in 2 seconds. Think about all the wombo combo ults that instantly slay 1-2 people on a team. The rest of the teamfight is one team running and clean up.

Thus for champions to compete in todays league of legends they have to have a strong effect in the first few seconds. The buildup to a 10 stack passive does not happen outside of bruiser versus bruiser fights which no longer last as long due to the armor penetration changes.

Darius is not too strong for this meta. He does exactly what he needs to do, punishes staying near him in a timeframe that is competitve with the rest of the cast of champions.

However, any champion design that takes longer than 5 seconds to have significant threat from their abilities could not exist as a competitive pick (unless they can also act when dead like the vengeance abilities of zyra, kog, karthus).

TLDR: The estimated life span of champions in a team fight is TOO SHORT to allow this kind of design. And thus we have Darius like he is currently.


I would also like to add that the average duration of teamfights is also leading to fewer and fewer viable champion archetypes. For example volibear is not very competitive in current meta because of how long his ult takes to get his threat out. Singed would be like this but he has a lot of instant threat from W and E that the long term threat of Q is workable. I question whether the average teamfight duration is at all affecting your champion and live balance team decisions in this regard because I assume it would be a lot.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-15-2013
5 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suspitio View Post
Wouldn't the armor pen on his ult just stack with his E that way?
Yeah, easy to fix though (80% max, or make the 20% after apprehend, etc). Not terribly important to the intent for this exercise, but good eye.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-15-2013
6 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob View Post
This design would not work with the rest of leagues design. Fights can and often are decided in 2 seconds. Think about all the wombo combo ults that instantly slay 1-2 people on a team. The rest of the teamfight is one team running and clean up.

Thus for champions to compete in todays league of legends they have to have a strong effect in the first few seconds. The buildup to a 10 stack passive does not happen outside of bruiser versus bruiser fights which no longer last as long due to the armor penetration changes.

Darius is not too strong for this meta. He does exactly what he needs to do, punishes staying near him in a timeframe that is competitve with the rest of the cast of champions.

However, any champion design that takes longer than 5 seconds to have significant threat from their abilities could not exist as a competitive pick (unless they can also act when dead like the vengeance abilities of zyra, kog, karthus).

TLDR: The estimated life span of champions in a team fight is TOO SHORT to allow this kind of design. And thus we have Darius like he is currently.
I do have that worry, which is I think the other feather in the hat that got us where we're at today. I think if this direction, though, can't work for Darius, then he's relegated to "lolbruiser" that has low interaction. I do tend to see longer teamfights than this though....so...


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Sorry Ima feeder

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Morello, a better idea: Just delete Darius
And teemo too, while your at it.


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Suspitio

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Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Yeah, easy to fix though (80% max, or make the 20% after apprehend, etc). Not terribly important to the intent for this exercise, but good eye.
And on a side note, how would Last Whisper stack with it all?


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-15-2013
7 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suspitio View Post
And on a side note, how would Last Whisper stack with it all?
Multiplicatively, like all pen %'s.


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nebojsa3

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Senior Member

01-15-2013

Why fix something that isnt broken?


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Rollerball

Senior Member

01-15-2013

I like that redesign. The thing I enjoy the most about bruisers is that its hard to notice the damage they do. I definately support this type of character, but I dont know how viable he would be.


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Sorry Ima feeder

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Morello, what do you think of doing a bit of this on live now? just reducing the base damage at 0 stacks on his ult or something.. pls.