@Morello, IF you had your time again, how would you redesign DARIUS??

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donkrx

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.
This sounds like an excellent idea. I dont even play Darius, but I think I'd really like to see this kind of gameplay.


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SidAres

Member

01-15-2013

Darius is pretty straight forward; the decisions you have to make as Darius or as his opponent are few and obvious, leaving little room for flexibility. The suggestions I place below are to improve on that aspect of Darius making him more rewarding to play and to fight against.

Hemorrhage needs to cap at 7 instead of 5. With full initiate combo plus auto attack, he gets 4 stacks in ~1.5 seconds. at ~2.5 seconds he will always get max stacks for his ulti unless CC'd. He can cap too quickly which leaves his dmg output to be on par or better than some assassins that don't have to worry about stacks at all. Low stacks should have below-average output and max stacks should have above-average output. the first 3 stacks is a given with a combo + AA (w/o apprehend) and the next 2 stacks done in the next 2 seconds, at which point his ulti will destroy someone. With 7 stacks he should receive immense killing power with his ulti, but the player will have to gamble on how long he can drag out the fight. If he chooses to use only 5 stacks, his power should be on the same level as other champs.

Decimate is the only ability that provides obvious counter play with the shaft/axe mechanic, but very few bother to do it because either way, their screwed. The problem is that he has the advantage whether your next to him or at the edge of decimate. To make the counter play viable he needs to lose some CC on cripple strike, and/or make it so he can only gain bleed stacks from the outer half (the axe part) which makes sense anyway.

Crippling Strike is his dueling skill and the AA-reset skill for bleed stacking. With this he gains an advantage over others in a 1v1 scenario. He definitely needs the AA-reset because that actually takes skill and will reward the player with more bleed stacks. However, the CC's leave the enemy with no decent option. Fight him and you got reduced attack speed, run away and you have reduced movement speed. Have one or the other, not both on the same ability. Considering he already gets movement speed with hemorrhage, I'd say lose the movement speed slow..and cause the attack speed slow to increase with blood stacks.

Apprehend needs to lose the passive armor pen. First, it doesn't make sense that it's a passive. Second, it works better as a debuff on the enemies he actually hits with the ability. By adding it as a debuff that shreds the enemy's armor that lasts maybe 5 seconds and a decaying movement speed slow. There is more reason to use it as an initiating tool rather than to save it for when the enemy tries to escape which is usually the best option currently. The player will have to decide on whether to use it to initiate for the arm pen. or save it to catch the enemy if he tries to escape..

Noxian Guillotine needs a rework on it's dmg type. What's the point of having an ability that gives armor penetration when he has an ability that doesn't need it at all? The idea morello had with increasing armor pen. per bleed stack could work. Say each bleed stack gives 10% arm pen. for this ability only, capping at 70% at 7 stacks. With a successful apprehend, that will give near true damage. Maybe add up to 50% additional damage at max bleed stacks and special visual/sound when executing with max stacks.(to make it more rewarding to cap stacks and harder to decide when to execute someone w/o full stacks). With true dmg out of the skill set, his armor pen will actually be used to it's fullest. The cooldown reset on kill is fine as it is.

TL;DR

Hemorrhage cap from 5 to 7.

Decimate only gives bleed stacks on the outer half (axe part).

Crippling Strike only reduces Attack Speed and adds bleed stack plus AA reset. Attack speed slow increases with bleed stacks.

Apprehend has it's armor penetration as a debuff to enemies hit plus a multiplicatively decaying movement speed slow.

Noxian Guillotine needs true damage removed. Give 10% arm pen. per bleed stack (as morello suggested) and a +50% additional dmg with special audio/visual effects at max bleed stacks.

Then playtesting for numbers balancing.


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Ramayana

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Two easy fixes for him. I don't know why you think this is so complex.

1. Make bleed physical damage.
2. Make Ult physical damage.

Pretty simple. Make him have to actually build some damage items to deal damage. Can't just go full tank and get pentas. His ultimate being true damage is dumb, it is the difference between everyone complaining about how OP he is, and him falling back into line in terms of overall power with other champs like him.


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Jenvas

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Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
that sounds pretty good to me and if it initially doesnt work you can make him balanced with minor tweaks of some numbers, like letting him add more stacks with a good hit with his blade, like the extra damage it does. currently you can just swap him between UP/stupid/OP. Adding more strategy to a champ is a good idea, certainly better than changing items to stop a single champion from being OP.


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Izisery

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Llann View Post
Is that explosive shot? Where you can cascade the damage from things dying rapidly killing other things in an AoE circle for truly ludicrous results?

I'm pretty sure it's a major problem when it actually goes off, it's just much harder to create the perfect conditions that generate the rapid reset.

No... her W jump resets on kill/assist.


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Snowsprite

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Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We'd go back to the original idea. I should dev log Darius' development sometime.

Originally, Darius had 7 stacks of hemorrhage and the ramp-up on how much the ult did was much more stark (low stacks were terrible, full stacks was what you see now - and it only did true damage at max). This wasn't perfect, but it's much closer to the design intent; let me explain that and then you'll know where I'd like to go with him in the future.

For Darius, his gameplay should be about building stacks and keeping them up over a longer period of time. When he reaches a threshhold that's actually difficult to reach, then his ultimate should rip you in half. I'd also like an ability for him to spread stacks for real insanity with this design. Let me give you my idea as it stands today;

The play pattern is that Darius wants to get to 10 stacks to just murder people hard. The counter-play should be to get him off you at least long enough for stacks to fall off. The longer the fight, the more advantageous to Darius. Ratios and stats changed to favor lower AD, tankier build to support this.

Hemmorhage: Changed to maximum 10 stacks on a target. DoT damage adjusted to match, with something like 5 now = 7 in this model. All skills interact with # of hemmorhage stacks on the target. Auto-attacks and skills apply 1 stack.

Blood-Soaked Blade A slight redo on the Q, this still does PBAOE damage and adds a stack of bleed. Any targets hit have their hemmhorage stacks shared with that target's allies.

Crippling Strike No longer gets shorter cooldown with hemmorhage, but instead increases the slow % and duration per stack. At max, this would get to something like 80% for 5 seconds. At 0 stacks, 0% slow, but still an AA reset.

Apprehend Unsure, but maybe just numbers.

Noxian Guillotine Does (small) base damage, +(OK) AD ratio. Base damage and armor penetration (10% per stack) increase per stack of Hemmorage. Ult STILL RESETS, as ten stacks should not be a particularly common occurance, and should be the state Darius is trying to achieve (and the state enemies are trying to prevent).

So, this would require testing etc, but it captures the spirit of Darius that matches the original intent of something that significantly ramps over time, and the gameplay revolves around preventing Darius from reaching short-term critical mass in an engagement, while he's trying to set up limited windows for a kill. The psychology should exemplify tension, as every move he can just hold on to for a little longer has greater power when used - either getting greedy by waiting too long or getting zealous by using things too early will cause Darius to miss his chance to beat someone in a fight.
This is wonderful. Please do it!


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KRATOS AURlON

Junior Member

01-15-2013

Just stomped on a darius in solo queue with J4. I am 1300ish elo but that's where a majority of league players are, as well as a majority of darius players are. Darius is barely played in comp. for a lot of reasons; kited to hell and back, QSS, bait his q's in lane...

There is plenty counterplay to Darius, you just have to understand how he works. Same with every other champion as well...


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Cronovey

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTobi View Post
That is just stupid

10 stacks isn't even feasible in a normal lane phase
That's the entire point. Garen's ultimate cooldown got nerfed, and Riven's is being nerfed in the upcoming patch, because they don't want those massive execute ultimates to be back up right after you get back to lane. Darius dunked me and I bought some armor and went back to lane? Too bad, his massive true damage nuke is up again.

The way I recommended it makes it still do true damage at the 6 stack point (right about where you would already be using it for a massive true damage nuke right now) but doesn't give you that free refresh for mercilessly killing your lane opponent because you have true damage and they don't. When you get back to lane after dying to him with 6 or 7 stacks of bleed, you know you'll have a window where you can ask for a jungler gank or fight him without the threat of being insta-nuked down again.


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Kuthillon

Junior Member

01-15-2013

I think if you were to go through with the proposed changes, his passive would need to be changed so the first champion gave him a 10% ms bonus, but the max was still 25%. Or, his e needs to apply a bleed, because it'd be pretty easy to trade in short bursts against a Darius if 0 stacks = 0% slow. I understand wanting to add counterplay, but this way it just sounds so easy to get away from Darius.Not to mention, have you thought of those who jungle Darius? Would his Q also spread bleeds to minions? The W changes would be pretty big on his clear time and especially his ganks.


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Hobbsgoblin

Senior Member

01-15-2013

My suggestions

E: Temporary bonus armor penetration OR reduced CD on the spell based on bleed stacks of champions pulled. Either of these can be in addition to or replacing the passive armor penetration

R: Changed to physical damage as a base, increase damage as compensation. Have the spell deal a % of its damage as true damage based on bleed stacks so that full stacks gives it 100% true damage

Right now with R you can just look at the target and usually make a guess as to whether it will kill them or not because its all true damage all the time. This change would make keeping track of the bleeds on the target more crucial and rewarding. Either change would create a higher reward for using bleeds more cleverly, which as a and I say this as a player that plays Darius to have an easy game.