Black Cleaver nerf NEEDS to be a hotfix. It CANNOT wait.

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X Zhaitan X

Senior Member

12-08-2012

I think the best solution would be to passive should be unique so you cant instantly reduce everybody's armor by 30 and armor/mr should be made cheaper, kinda like in season 2. That way building resistances does feel meaningless since they will last for longer and are more cost efficient. I think increasing the cost of resistances was a big mistake with all the resistance shredding they've added to season 3.


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DeciEVE or AFK

Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
Change is bad. I should build the same **** every game and get anything that changes that build nerfed.

Got it.
I'm all for changing up your build to suit the enemy. I'd definitely buy an hourglass on my ap champs vs a ad-heavy team, or an abyssal scepter for a mostly ap team. If my enemy rushes a chalice, I'd get a haunting guise, and if they really go all out with the mr, I'd get a voidstaff. If I'm against a heavy-stun ap mid like Veig/Annie, I'd get mercs so I can recover faster and hit them back. I'd probably get a roa if their team is almost all tanks, even on LB, just so I don't die before I can pull a combo off.

These are situational item picks that depend on how I'm doing, how skilled the enemy is, and I still have a core build on my champs that I like to get each game, like DFG/Rabadons on my leblanc/eve. If I were to rush roa/rylai's, I wouldn't be able to get either of my core items for the entire match because those would set me back 6k or more, and it would seriously hurt my gold income since I'm not going to be winning any teamfights with it - I'd merely be surviving and getting a few assists at best.



But the guy I was quoting said if you're against a team with ad-casters, you have to get 2 very tanky, very expensive items that set back your damage immensely, or you automatically lose.

There is something wrong with that.


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Bullistixx

Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeciEVE or AFK View Post
Um.. WHAT?

Before this fiasco with bc started, most ap casters didn't buy roa OR rylai's unless they were specifically built for it, i.e. Swain/Morg/Diana, and when they did, they would rush it and be done with it for the rest of the game to focus on the rest of their build, i..e deathcap, dfg/athene's.

You're suggesting that they buy BOTH items? when even with the extra hp and very little ap, they'll be doing likely 25% of the total dmg of the bc-stacking enemy team, and therefore still lose to them?

What champ are you seriously suggesting you buy -both- roa and rylai's on, because none of the champs I play would even buy one of them and still expect to do their job. You'd really expect a Morg or a Lux to get rylai's in their build? A 3k+ item with a passive that is useless on both of those champs, that adds 1.6k worth of ap, where even if its rushed, adds very meager amounts of survivability and stops you from bursting anyone down.

You're suggesting an Eve buys roa/rylai's? A Fiddle? A LeBlanc is supposed to get roa/rylai's?

Yeah okay. Let's just completely disregard the fact that the people buying/stacking blackcleaver are completely forgoing defensive options in their build because they simply don't need it, yet anyone facing them has to buy 1-2k+ worth of hp to not be called bad by you.

Definitely seems fair and balanced.

I'm guessing you're a rengar main.

If you want to build dmg go for it, it's not a bad idea. TBC is a squishy item, that 250 health is misleading. With two TBCs on Riven I have around 2400 health and very little defenses. With your Spell Pen % and flat spell pen you should be able to wreck me if you build pure dmg. Now if you build pure dmg and not tanky, then yeah, if I do manage to get to you, I am going to kill you. But if a melee bruiser manages to get to a ranged AP caster in the first place, that ranged AP caster sucks


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Neroth

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
the post I was quoting referred to cleaver-stacking across a whole team.

For one person refer back to my statement of "The problems' less Cleaver and more someone fed a guy 12k+ to buy four cleavers with".

I will admit: Making them Unique is a fair nerf.

Toning down their stats in addition seems a step too far.
I agree with this.
If they make the passive AND the arpen unique (because you cannot stack Mrpen due to it now) i will be fine with it.
Sorry for being overzealous, assumed you want to defend this due to free elo.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overseer1 View Post
I agree with this.
If they make the passive AND the arpen unique (because you cannot stack Mrpen due to it now) i will be fine with it.
Sorry for being overzealous, assumed you want to defend this due to free elo.
I'm still being a bit selfish in defending it, but my position is more "Yay Urgot/Kha don't suck now" than "gonna stack dese on mah top"


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kthnxbai

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Recruiter

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullistixx View Post
I find it kindah funny that people can't actually realize the item has a counter.

Oh wait let me guess.. you're the kind of player that likes the fact that all it took to make assassins completely useless in a game was to put on either 1 Frozen heart or 1 Randuins Omen. Completely balanced right?
assassins were fine before this patch. eve, diana, and kat were used and banned in IPL5 AND the world championship. the most popular tournament champion, lee sin, is an assassin.

right now, eve, diana, and kat are garbage and it's all riven, talon, panth, etc.

also, assassins are supposed to kill squishies, neither of which are going to buy a frozen heart or randuins. you want them to oneshot tanks too?


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mambawarrior0

Senior Member

12-08-2012

I really have no problem with the meta being destroyed.
I do have a problem when it is replaced by teams consisting purely of bruisers and AD casters every single game.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kthnxbai View Post
assassins were fine before this patch. eve, diana, and kat were used in IPL5 AND the world championship. the most popular tournament champion, lee sin, is an assassin.

right now, eve, diana, and kat are garbage and it's all riven, talon, panth, etc.

also, assassins are supposed to kill squishies, neither of which are going to buy a frozen heart or randuins. you want them to oneshot tanks too?
Eve, Diana, and Kat are still all very strong.

The upswing in FotM from their tournament usage does go a long way to making them look bad, tho >.>


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kthnxbai

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12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
Eve, Diana, and Kat are still all very strong.

The upswing in FotM from their tournament usage does go a long way to making them look bad, tho >.>
no they are significantly weaker than prepatch. bulwark is such a hard counter to them (30 AOE MR is ridiculous). the items that made them strong (sorc boots + haunting guise + abyssal) got nerfed in their mpen.

and then you have this black cleaver nonsense and that any AD mid will destroy any of these champions and they're basically garbage.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kthnxbai View Post
no they are significantly weaker than prepatch. bulwark is such a hard counter to them (30 AOE MR is ridiculous). the items that made them strong (sorc boots + haunting guise + abyssal) got nerfed in their mpen.

and then you have this black cleaver nonsense and that any AD mid will destroy any of these champions and they're basically garbage.
Bulwark is a strong item.

It's also a very lategame item for most teams.

They peak much earlier. And with the pen changes they can very easily stick a void staff in instead of Abyssal. Plus the new DFG. Plus the Haunting Guise upgrade that actually makes it relevant later in the game.

Again, Items changed for everybody. That AD's and Bruisers discovered a better setup first is a matter of coincidence.


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