(Map Concept) 3 team battlefield 5v5v5

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thorkazil

Member

12-22-2012

One question, what happens if one team is destroyed and the other teams have survived. Does the eliminated team spectate or do they exit the game entirely?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ploki122

Senior Member

12-22-2012

Honestly, I used to think a 3v3v3 map was possible too, but once you start delving into balancing everything, you understand the 1 huge conceptual flaw about it : backdoor. Basically, there is no incentive to fight.

Let's say there's team A, B and C. For this example, exceptionally, they are level 11 and everyone has the exact same money and experience as well as the same skill level. So A sees that B is trying to catch C off guard because C's ADC is farming a camp far from his team. B initiates on the ADC and kill it with 4 members. We now have the situation :
A : 5 Alive near B's base.
B : 1 Alive near B's base, 4 90% hp near C's base
C : 4 Alive near C's base.

So now, C clashed on B, trying to save their dude and raging about how he was so off position and that his mom sucked because he was a afro-canadian and blah blah blah, but the point is, C initiates on B.it's still a 4v4 with B missing some HP.

Now B has 2 options, try to peel (and possibly lose 1-2 champs) to defend from A. Or fight the fight and possibly win (since C is missing a key player, and the 5th B could join in), but leave A to backdoor their base endlessly.

In the same way, C has 2 options, actually chase B down, or wait for their 6th to come back up, depending on what A is doing (if A comes, C leaves. If A backdoors, C chases).

And finally, A has 2 options, Try to catch both teams and score a lot of kills, or try to backdoor B.

So let's see in what position they are :

C : neutral (fight an unsure fight or do nothing)
B : Lose-Lose (get backdoor'd or get killed)
A : Win-Win (get kills or backdoor)

So basically, B is punished for initiating, C hasn't really lost a lot although they got caught off position because they played badly and A got rewarded for not doing anything.

Even if all 3 don't ever hard engage onto someone, the one who will always come ahead is the one who didn't take part in that fight...

Another reason why 3 teams wouldn't work is because of how strong AoE becomes... Basically, Karthus is an instant ban, and so is Teemo, Kog'Maw, Lux, Garen, Wukong...

And last but not least, the reason why it's a non-functional concept is because of the multiple 2v1 situations... basically, KSers like Katarina, Darius, Twitch, Nidalee, etc. becomes must pick, because you don't want the 3rd team to get the kill. And that can be extended to the victory scenario... Basically, if you win by killing a nexus, then Amumu becomes a must pick... stand by nexus, wait till it gets low, Flash + Ult and last-hit while they can't AA... If it is a last-man standing, then you are even more penalized by fighting (because the 3rd party will roughly have the game in its hands.


If there ever is a map such as a SR-like 5v5v5, I think the winning team is the one with the hardest late game, whatever their early game is like... They can't die early or the team that killed them will die... So basically, I run Amumu, Malphite, Vayne, Kogmaw and Karma




Other fundamental flaws from 3-sided fights includes : Mid lane, all minions will always be stuck in the middle until a team dies. Basically, 1 team's minions can never outpush 2 teams'

If you REALLY wanna create such a map, you would need to have something like a central buff that gives invulnerability to your base for like 5-8 minutes with a respawn timer of ~75% that duration. But then again, it simply favor AoE/ks further because there will be 15 persons fighting over 1 buff. So the next option is smaller buffs that grant it to the teams, with buffs stackings (something like 2m45 invulnerability with a 5m respawn time. but then you have a team that can simply snowball as hard as he wants, with no way to denies it.



Basically, to jot it down into simple statements, for a 3-sided battle,
1) You need an incentive to attacking.
2) Because of #1, you need a reliable way to defend yourself.
3) You need a critical way to counter #2, so that by outplaying your opponent, they can actually throw and you can create a comeback.
4) You need a way to prevent/promote ganging up, depending on the situation. (but in most cases, it'll be prevent).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

piiees

Senior Member

12-23-2012

i think that's an awesome idea. i think you should make the paths a bit more random looking or something and wind up in a way so its like the tip of the mountain. also, an idea would be to make the map like a capture the mountain or like a buff for the team that holds the centre so that becomes the primary area (like the things in twisted treeline) so that teams wont gang up on one team right away and make it a two team game.
just my thoughts, but i really like the idea and set up isn't that bad

also, the map i think could work better with it being a 3v3v3 for smoother run in the team fights because 15 champions would be insane.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dracoum

Junior Member

12-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorkazil View Post
One question, what happens if one team is destroyed and the other teams have survived. Does the eliminated team spectate or do they exit the game entirely?
I'd imagine they are given the option to spectate or are given the option to exit to view their team stats (based on the time when their team was eliminated). Plus, I think Trumpet Timex mentioned that the team that eliminates an enemy team gets a fairly large gold bonus for each remaining tower and for the nexus.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

pumpikin

Junior Member

12-24-2012

what if the first defeated team was not made to spectate/exit the game as soon as their nexus was destroyed, but had the remainder of their life to either get revenge OR have some extremely difficult way to respawn their Nexus (like ACE one of the other teams)? The catch is that their Team's Champions CANNOT respawn without their Nexus, so if a champion dies (or is dead when their Nexus is destroyed) they must wait (perhaps retain their ping and communication capabilities) until either their entire team is killed OR their team ACES an opposing team... Or they could be given the chance to just reek Havoc upon the other teams, until the end of the game...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ModelT

Senior Member

12-24-2012

As much as I'd like to praise the idea of a new map, and a new game concept... it is inherently flawed. In a regular 5v5, you have just two teams bent on each other destruction.... it's fair and balanced. Your team sucks, the other team gets fed. They have bad team comp, you have the advantage. Etc, Etc.

This is a COMPLETELY different concept. Your team can have awesome team comp, do excellent, not make mistakes, and enemy team A beats enemy team B by a lot more than you can beat either... you still lose. Or perhaps both teams just gang up on your team and kill you, and then fight it out amongst themselves? A 5v5v5 breaks the inherent "balanced" nature of the game.

HOWEVER, the map looks great...

AND ALSO, if you were to take something more similar to a Dominion style game play, where you pit the three teams not against each other, but make them fight to accomplish a single goal, then perhaps you have yourself a game.

This is where I start bringing the hope back

First, clean out the jungle a little bit and make it a better maze. Second, make minions spawn from the center of the map, and make them all a special kind of super minion. Third, have ONLY base towers for each team. Fourth, make the base towers re spawn. Yeah. Next, give the enemy teams incentive to kill each other... like additional points or something. Now, here's the plan: King of the Hill. Each team has to fight to get into the center. Time spent in the center gives points, but it only matters if there is at least 1 member per team in the center, any extra members don't add additional points. Breaking Enemy towers can earn extra points, and breaking the enemy.... other things that are in their base, and half the number of points they get.

Yeah? This is fair, because if an enemy is doing well holding the middle, teams can team up and break their bases and give themselves an advantage. It brings it further away from luck, brings in the importance of good judgment and teamwork that is vital to LoL, and makes for a BIG exciting match.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

UchihaAvenger666

Junior Member

12-25-2012

i love it that would be sick


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ModelT

Senior Member

12-26-2012

In regards to my previous post, there would have to be a few new/different summoner spells. Teleport, banned. Dropping a ward into the center base and having your whole team tele in... kinda OP. There would have to be a new spell similar to Garrison, but it would allow you to target a nearby tower to make it invincible for a few seconds.

@ploki122
I agree that the inherent nature of a 3+ team battle is unbalanced due to what my friends and I call the "Bystander Effect" where one team just kind of sits back and build up and destroys the other teams when they are weak. However, because this new concept (the "King Of The Hill" style play) is a point system that requires your team to split its resources (I should note: There are no minions in the middle, thus, no farm), and by staying in the middle (winning) you lose access to additional money per champion in the middle, you leave an empty slot in your team to defend your base, and if your base gets taken, you get greatly reduced points.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Trumpet Timex

Junior Member

12-26-2012

Hey guys, sorry to be tardy to the party. Between Christmas and the lack of internet my home has, it's been very difficult to stay in touch with this forum. I currently live off of cheeseburgers and McDonald's WiFi.

Formalities aside, I thank everyone for keeping the map concept alive. I give special thanks to ploki122 for 2 reasons: The completely likely scenario of being called an afro-canadian (Thank you for the lols, i laughed so hard that I cried), and pointing out how unforgiving a 3 team battle is. Clearly, we need to give better options for being aggressive, not just incentive (after all, what does 10,000 bonus gold do for you if your nexus was backdoored?) Again, special thanks to ploki122 for not just pointing out the flaws, but describing them to be understood easily. We, the community, need to think of a whole slew of items and summoner spells to make a legitimate map design.

In the meantime, it seems everyone feels the same way about the jungle... randomize it better. Before I change it, I want to find the most popular ideas to conform the new jungle to (because drawing the jungle is really annoying, and the fewer times I have to edit it, the better). So all things considered, do we want more jungle creeps, less of them, and how much commitment do we want teams to give for the level 1 buffs?

Sorry for the long-winded reply, I'm just trying to do the best I can to make the community happy. I go back to my dorm sometime around January 22nd, so I'll be able to do regular updates again (because my dorm actually has good internet).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

XSkull9

Junior Member

12-26-2012

I have to agree on 3 man teams. More for mercy to less powerful machines.

I also say to scrap thee mid lane. Without constant pushing and a formidable rearguard, mid would be in a constant stalemate.

Though, for a twist, make the boss monsters not provide buffs to champions, but rather give benefits to the teams' nexus, towers, and minions. For instance, slaying one of these boss monsters would respawn and repair a teams turrets.

This thread also has me considering a game mode that involves the opposing teams trying to defeat a mega-boss before the other.