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5% reduction to Black Cleaver wont really change anything

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Fox P McCloud

Senior Member

12-08-2012

You're nuts if you don't think it does anything; they also nerfed the flat ArPen by 5, as well.

The previous break even point for Last Whisper to beat Black Cleaver (at full stacks) was ~320 armor (this factors in the 8% ArPen from masteries)---now, Last Whisper beats Black Cleaver at 100 armor or above, and this is a fully stacked cleaver.

There's really no point to Black Cleaver anymore aside from acting as an amp for your team---under selfish conditions, Last Whisper is almost always going to be a better choice; especially if you already have Brutalizer. If these changes go through I predict very very few individuals will ever pick it up once the newness wears off and people start building logical non-silly builds.

It's unlikely that the ADC will get Black Cleaver; it effectively means they're giving up blood-thirster for it; they'll gain a bit of a boost in DPS (only at full stacks, meaning the 5th attack onward) in exchange for absolutely no survivability. As for non ADCs getting TBC+LW? Even less likely.


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Jdorty

Junior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Fox P McCloud:
You're nuts if you don't think it does anything; they also nerfed the flat ArPen by 5, as well.

The previous break even point for Last Whisper to beat Black Cleaver (at full stacks) was ~320 armor (this factors in the 8% ArPen from masteries)---now, Last Whisper beats Black Cleaver at 100 armor or above, and this is a fully stacked cleaver.

There's really no point to Black Cleaver anymore aside from acting as an amp for your team---under selfish conditions, Last Whisper is almost always going to be a better choice; especially if you already have Brutalizer. If these changes go through I predict very very few individuals will ever pick it up once the newness wears off and people start building logical non-silly builds.

It's unlikely that the ADC will get Black Cleaver; it effectively means they're giving up blood-thirster for it; they'll gain a bit of a boost in DPS (only at full stacks, meaning the 5th attack onward) in exchange for absolutely no survivability. As for non ADCs getting TBC+LW? Even less likely.


For bruisers BC still makes sense, seeing as it gives you health and CD reduction (this wasn't changed, was it?). And since you can get brutalizer still for early game. I could see getting BC+LW on Riven still, for example.

However, I agree that all that needed changing was making it unique for %arpen and CD. Isn't every other pen and CD item unique? Seems like just by that as an indication, all that is needed is making it unique.

After all the whole point was to help AD casters like pantheon be able to scale into late game. This change kinda negates that somewhat.


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Lisztomaniac

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Talamare:
Too sides of the same coin

200 - 10 = 190 * 40% = 114
200 * 40% = 120 - (10 * 40%) = 114

Proof that % was reducing flat
but either way its said its the same result, the one was making the other weaker

that was the point of the change


and why exactly are you doing that?

its 10 flat not 10*40%


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Draconic74

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
PROTECT MY BACK:
Pretty sure this was all due to some tanks being too hard to take down, and basically securing victories for their teams.


That may be the case, but in general offense always trumped defense with a full build. A decent carry could do very little damage to a tank who gets ahead, but if they farm for 20 minutes their damage output becomes WAY too high for even the tank to survive. They made that even more so with the changes, making armor more expensive and damage cheaper, plus the rearranging of the defense penetration calculation.


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Tadiken

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Take into account the old rammus, malphite, and amumu. in their primes, they did massive amounts of aoe damage, had great cc, and NEVER DIED. That was the problem. Problem is now fixed.


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Tadiken

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
Fox P McCloud:
You're nuts if you don't think it does anything; they also nerfed the flat ArPen by 5, as well.

The previous break even point for Last Whisper to beat Black Cleaver (at full stacks) was ~320 armor (this factors in the 8% ArPen from masteries)---now, Last Whisper beats Black Cleaver at 100 armor or above, and this is a fully stacked cleaver.

There's really no point to Black Cleaver anymore aside from acting as an amp for your team---under selfish conditions, Last Whisper is almost always going to be a better choice; especially if you already have Brutalizer. If these changes go through I predict very very few individuals will ever pick it up once the newness wears off and people start building logical non-silly builds.

It's unlikely that the ADC will get Black Cleaver; it effectively means they're giving up blood-thirster for it; they'll gain a bit of a boost in DPS (only at full stacks, meaning the 5th attack onward) in exchange for absolutely no survivability. As for non ADCs getting TBC+LW? Even less likely.

You just proved my point on why i thought in season 2 black cleaver was better. Someone finally did the math. Everyone thought it was 120~ armor but they never factored in the attack speed or extra flat damage.


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Fox P McCloud

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
port5:
You just proved my point on why i thought in season 2 black cleaver was better. Someone finally did the math. Everyone thought it was 120~ armor but they never factored in the attack speed or extra flat damage.


I'm not comparing S2 Black Cleaver.

I'm comparing current Black Cleaver on live (S3) to PBE Black Cleaver (also S3).

It not feasible possible to compare S2 BC to S3 BC----one applies on auto-attacks only...another abilities+auto's; one has AS which completely throws things off (some bruisers can't really use AS well, others can...some champs have on-hit effects that benefit having AS like Vayne and Kog, where as other don't).


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Bic

Recruiter

12-09-2012

Note: The Armor pen now goes percent armor pen than regular armor pen.


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Talamare

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Lisztomaniac:
and why exactly are you doing that?

its 10 flat not 10*40%


I am proving that in S2 % was reducing Flat...


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Tspiggs

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Talamare:
I am proving that in S2 % was reducing Flat...


but your not proving that. the only way to reduce flat pen is to reduce how much you have i.e. 10-5. thats reduced flat pen. when you did your whole 200-40%= 120 - (10*40%) you are making stuff up. thats not how it works at all.

as some one already pointed out:
200-40%=120-10=110
10 is FLAT PEN
while in season 2;
200-10=190-40%=114
10 once again is FLAT PEN.

penetration was buffed in S3 not the other way around


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