Why do people claim ELO Hell doesn't exsist?

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Flagrock

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Ok, going to start this out before the downvotes come. ELO HELL EXISTS. Now, Elo hell is the zone about 200-300 ELO below where you SHOULD be. Statistically YOU WILL REACH YOUR ELO... BUT for it to actually work you need at least 1000 games and by that time well, you hopefully are better so you should be at an even HIGHER ELO. So, it's a vicious cycle that repeats. However, usually people say ELO hell is in the lower brackets because that's where most of the people are and they have to claw their way up and ELO is set up so that A% is in this bracket and so on. So, most people will be in the "Elo hell" bracket because that is just how it works.

You can carry yourself out of "ELO HELL". I think I might be out of it finally (1219 ELO). I just went top every game I could, went 4/0 or 5/0 top, forced laning to end, and then shut down their fed people. I did lose some games when I just couldn't carry (4 man dive team top when your Elise jungler feeds 0/11 is hard to beat) and I moved on and thought how I could have played better. Reasons: I picked top because after the first 2 game going top and utterly dominating, I saw that I had potiental to carry from top and every time I could I went top (I'm currently 6/1 top... 3 losses were from forced jungling) and I would always win. I tried to talk throughout champ select and get trades and picks set up so that I would have counters and that my team would get the champs they needed. It is REALLY hard to carry from ELO Hell, but you just have to be a good leader and play insanely well every game. You can't let people fighting stop you from playing your best game, and you HAVE TO be the person who stops the fighting and gets people to work together. If you somehow get A) lucky B) good at being a leader and C) amazing at winning your position, you will get out of ELO HELL pretty soon. Just be positive, and if you want try to send me a request, and I'll duo with you to try and help you get out.

Edit
A great video that might also help people is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxE8wTbYJs8 Watch it, and it explains why if you don't care about single games and raging, you'll play better


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LogicalTautology

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeHearShapes View Post
This still does not refute my argument. I did not mention trolls ect.
People claiming trolls feeders ect are misusing the term elo hell. Since both teams are just as likely to have trolls .
My point was that bad players tend to make more mistakes. These mistakes cannot be given a variable because they are random . It's fair to say that one mistake at lets say late game can be game costing even if your team was up by a fairly high margin . To simplify it is a bad player will make more mistakes then a high elo player . Mistakes equal random outcomes to games that should be easy wins .
Btw i am a hardened veteran of elo hell and have racked about many wins and losses between the elos of 900 and 1350 . My experienced has shaped my opinion on this topic.
Two counterpoints.
One: The lower the skill level of a game, the less likely it is for any one mistake to swing the game. The worse you are at LoL, the less you are able to capitalize on mistakes and convert them into wins.
Two: You are making those "game costing" mistakes just as often as every other player at your Elo. If you weren't, your team would throw the game significantly less often and you would win many more games than you lose.


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LogicalTautology

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flagrock View Post
Ok, going to start this out before the downvotes come. ELO HELL EXISTS. Now, Elo hell is the zone about 200-300 ELO below where you SHOULD be. Statistically YOU WILL REACH YOUR ELO... BUT for it to actually work you need at least 1000 games and by that time well, you hopefully are better so you should be at an even HIGHER ELO. So, it's a vicious cycle that repeats. However, usually people say ELO hell is in the lower brackets because that's where most of the people are and they have to claw their way up and ELO is set up so that A% is in this bracket and so on. So, most people will be in the "Elo hell" bracket because that is just how it works.

You can carry yourself out of "ELO HELL". I think I might be out of it finally (1219 ELO). I just went top every game I could, went 4/0 or 5/0 top, forced laning to end, and then shut down their fed people. I did lose some games when I just couldn't carry (4 man dive team top when your Elise jungler feeds 0/11 is hard to beat) and I moved on and thought how I could have played better. Reasons: I picked top because after the first 2 game going top and utterly dominating, I saw that I had potiental to carry from top and every time I could I went top (I'm currently 6/1 top... 3 losses were from forced jungling) and I would always win. I tried to talk throughout champ select and get trades and picks set up so that I would have counters and that my team would get the champs they needed. It is REALLY hard to carry from ELO Hell, but you just have to be a good leader and play insanely well every game. You can't let people fighting stop you from playing your best game, and you HAVE TO be the person who stops the fighting and gets people to work together. If you somehow get A) lucky B) good at being a leader and C) amazing at winning your position, you will get out of ELO HELL pretty soon. Just be positive, and if you want try to send me a request, and I'll duo with you to try and help you get out.

Edit
A great video that might also help people is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxE8wTbYJs8 Watch it, and it explains why if you don't care about single games and raging, you'll play better
If you're even 50 Elo below your 'correct' skill level, you should be winning lane almost every time. By the same token, over a sample of even 20 or so games the other lanes will always tend to break even. So no, it doesn't take "thousands of games" by any means.

1) Your Top Elo is by definition higher than your true Elo. Do not think that just because you reached 1300 before falling back to 1150 that you 'belong at 1300'. This is a very common misconception.
2) As a corollary to the above point: I'm sure we've all had a run of good luck and won 5ish games in a row, reaching an Elo 100 points or so above where you actually belong. Did it take you 1000 games to fall back to your true Elo? Of course not. And by definition, it takes just as long to fall 100 back to your true Elo than it does to climb 100 points up to your true Elo.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeHearShapes View Post
This still does not refute my argument. I did not mention trolls ect.
People claiming trolls feeders ect are misusing the term elo hell. Since both teams are just as likely to have trolls .
You're refuting your own argument.

Since both teams are just as likely to have trolls (or ANYTHING that would cause a loss) then if everything is equal (that includes your skill level relative to everyone else in the match), then you'll come out with a 50% win rate over a large enough sample size of games.

That is to say if you're not good enough to have a positive impact on your team's winning chances, you won't have a win-rate over 50%. If you're not bad enough to have a negative impact on your team's winning chances, you won't have a win-rate under 50%.

But if both teams have an equal chance of having a player who will cause them to lose (for any reason, whether it's on purpose or not, whether it's a simple mistake or not), but you are better then everyone else in the lobby (which has to be your belief, because you claim you belong at a higher Elo), then you're not making those plays or mistakes that would cause your team to lose. And because you're not, the enemy team has 1 more player that can make that mistake than you do, and so you therefore end up with a winning percentage over 50%, and increase your Elo.


If your team doesn't have an increased chance of winning just for including you, then you're not better then the average player at your Elo bracket.


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Windstorm

Member

12-09-2012

all I'm getting out of this is it doesn't exist except for players that prefer to play jungle or support, because they are very highly dependent on the skill level of their teammates.

cool, so I don't get the play what I would prefer to just so I don't get F****ed when I hit ranked. (lvl 28 here)


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LogicalTautology

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindstormSCR View Post
all I'm getting out of this is it doesn't exist except for players that prefer to play jungle or support, because they are very highly dependent on the skill level of their teammates.

cool, so I don't get the play what I would prefer to just so I don't get F****ed when I hit ranked. (lvl 28 here)
Nope. Feel free to play the role in which your Value Over Replacement is highest. No matter what role you play, if you are better than other people at your Elo you will go up.


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Buffalax

Junior Member

12-09-2012

I think the problem that a lot of people have, PogoPogoPogoPogo included, is that they think of player skill as a sort of number that gets summed over a team in some way to determine who wins. The team with the highest total skill should win, they reason, so if your skill is higher than average for your elo, your elo should slowly rise.

The problem with this is that, regardless of elo, there are few teammates so bad they usually lose; if they were that bad, their elo would drop further, and you wouldn't get matched with them. What I've found instead is that a lot of low-elo players are relatively bad at playing but surprisingly good at carrying. That is, they've honed a particular playstyle enough to snowball into a raging death machine if things go their way, but if they get countered or make an early mistake, they stick to their rigid, aggressive tactics and quickly become worse than useless. I think Asellas's comment is rather telling:

Quote:
You can carry a game very well, and than again not get a kill the next game.
At higher elos, this isn't normal; one may carry some games very well, but unless one's assists are through the roof, going kill-less is usually a sign that someone made a serious mistake. In elo hell, though, this sort of "bipolar" performance seems fairly common.

So what's the upshot? When so many players are walking a fine line between awesome and abysmal, the winner stops being a question of "which team has the most total skill?" and starts being a question of "which team has the bigger snowballs?". In this setting, it doesn't matter if you get a kill or two, keep up good cs, and take down your tower, because the winning team was already decided when one of the adcs went 6/0 by 15 minutes. If anything, playing a cautious and flexible game can slightly decrease your chances of winning, because your team has one fewer potential snowball. This also explains why gold-and-above-level players tend to deny that elo hell exists; if you're so good you can not only adapt to but reliably dominate changing circumstances, you can snowball against an inflexible player nearly every time, and elo hell becomes easy to escape.

Sorry for the wall of text - I've been pondering this for a while. Since putting my finger on what I think the problem is, I've made an effort to 1)always choose a champion well suited to 1v1 and 1v2, 2)never play support if I can help it, and 3)focus on helping my teammates win their lanes as much as I focus on winning my own, and I seem to be slowly but steadily regaining my lost elo.


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EyeHearShapes

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicalTautology View Post
Two counterpoints.
One: The lower the skill level of a game, the less likely it is for any one mistake to swing the game. The worse you are at LoL, the less you are able to capitalize on mistakes and convert them into wins.
Two: You are making those "game costing" mistakes just as often as every other player at your Elo. If you weren't, your team would throw the game significantly less often and you would win many more games than you lose.
Point 2 doesnt fit. You cant assume that a mistake , which is a random action will occur the same amount for every person .


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EyeHearShapes

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
You're refuting your own argument.

Since both teams are just as likely to have trolls (or ANYTHING that would cause a loss) then if everything is equal (that includes your skill level relative to everyone else in the match), then you'll come out with a 50% win rate over a large enough sample size of games.

That is to say if you're not good enough to have a positive impact on your team's winning chances, you won't have a win-rate over 50%. If you're not bad enough to have a negative impact on your team's winning chances, you won't have a win-rate under 50%.

But if both teams have an equal chance of having a player who will cause them to lose (for any reason, whether it's on purpose or not, whether it's a simple mistake or not), but you are better then everyone else in the lobby (which has to be your belief, because you claim you belong at a higher Elo), then you're not making those plays or mistakes that would cause your team to lose. And because you're not, the enemy team has 1 more player that can make that mistake than you do, and so you therefore end up with a winning percentage over 50%, and increase your Elo.


If your team doesn't have an increased chance of winning just for including you, then you're not better then the average player at your Elo bracket.
You cant put a variable on a random action like a mistake. Since well its random . Saying theres a 50/50 split doesnt work with a random unpredictable action. No where did i claim i belong in a higher elo . Although i am better then most the people at my elo its only because i've played more games. If you have a problem with me saying that lolking me and look at my stats . As i mentioned you can carry yourself out of Elo Hell if u play well . I doubt anything i can say or anything you say will change either of our minds because we've both solidified our opinions in our minds .


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Enconex

Senior Member

12-09-2012

I don't know why anyone would ever think for a second that Elo hell doesn't exist. It quite obviously does.

I consider myself a pretty good player that should be some where around 1500-1600 ELO but im stuck around 1200. I main top and have only lost my lane 1 time (with over 100 ranked games) due to getting cocky and giving my opponent an early kill. I'm not claiming I don't make mistakes...I do, and there are games where I will do something stupid that causes me to die.

The problem is, no one seems to realize just how bad it is at this elo. No matter how many games you play the system WILL NOT average you out to where you need to be. Nearly EVERY game there is someone who WANTS to lose the game, or someone who feeds so much it is not possible to carry the game. I don't care if your some pro from CLG or TSM, you cant carry a team who has fed the enemy so many kills.

I have played at 1600 ELO before and it is substantially EASIER to win then it is to win at the ELO i'm in. But I have also noticed that I'm am still better than half the players in 1600 ELO as many of them do the same damn thing as the low ELO players do. Solo Q feels like a coin toss where the the lucky players move up and the unlucky players stay put or move down.

The fact is the system is designed for team play (ranked 5v5 teams) not Solo Q. The best way to move up is to check everyone's stats in the select screen and dodge if someone seems like he throws games or sucks. If you don't want to wait 30min+ then I wish you luck on your coin tosses.


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