Black Cleaver pt. 2

First Riot Post
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Cauldrath

Senior Member

12-08-2012

My complete proposed changes:

System-level:
Cap % mitigation pen and reduction to 50%
Change order of application to % shred, % pen, flat reduction, flat pen, so flat reduction gets the same multiplicative benefit.

Black Cleaver:
% shred changed to flat shred
or
flat penetration removed and buff the % shred

Now you can let them stack as much as you want.

Why?

1) Even with the changes on the PBE and if Ghostblade (which they seemed to have forgotten exists) gets a similar nerf to have 15 unique armor pen and the armor pen is a named unique like Eyes of Pain, on certain champs it will be possible to negate a very large amount of armor.

Darius, with 25% passive armor pen, 35% armor pen from LW, 25% reduction from BC, 8% pen from Weapon Expertise, 15 flat pen from Ghostblade, and 14 flat pen from runes/masteries:

final armor = armor * 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.65 * 0.92 - 29 = armor * 0.336375 - 29

86 armor becomes 0, and you need 383 armor to get 100 armor and 50% damage mitigation. That is a very small amount of flat pen, but the amount of % pen makes it so valuable that it negates roughly 3 times as much armor. Making flat pen more scarce doesn't fix the issue of its value, it just makes getting all the pen you can more important. It also means that you have to balance any pen or shred from any source around the maximum amount that could be combined with it. The Dominion aura pen, for instance, was helpful for AD and AP carries, as they tend to build more straight damage than other champ types and less mitigation, but, due to the way it interacts with other penetration now, which bruisers build a lot of and carries don't, it became more valuable on the bruisers and had to be removed from the carries. Putting a cap on the % pen prevents those cases from getting out of control, opening up the use of penetration without having to worry as much about the stacked case.

2) Having % shred and flat pen on the same item removes counterplay. The counter to flat reduction is mitigation and the counter to mitigation is % reduction. By changing the % shred to flat shred, you no longer have an item that counters its own counter.

Alternatively, you could release items like Odyn's Veil and Ninja Tabi that have mitigation that isn't subject to penetration, but we need one to apply to physical spells and there need to be versions which don't have armor or mr, so they are the counter to building pen/shred. This would be a fix, but I think it would just be a bandaid covering the real problem.


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Infirc

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Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krampus Claus View Post
whatever you do, don't balance an SR item for dominion. This is like the gunblade nerf from a year ago because jax and akali were gunblade stacking and dominating dominion.

Change the global passive to compensate, at most make the passive unique, but don't design a single item to make AD casters stronger on SR, and then nerf it to balance for dominion. Most of us haven't touched dominion in nearly a year, and would be pretty peeved if you started messing with our gear because it's proving problematic in an already poorly balanced map.

If it's that big of a problem, just remove BC from dominion and make a dominion item only with the appropriate stats.
Yeah because the Pro scene of summonner's rift isn't stacing black cleavers as the new meta lol... HAve you been living under a rock this last Month or what? because every pro team is basically telling everyone to just run full ad teams and stack BCs.


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xPANCAKEx

Senior Member

12-08-2012

I've been playing this game for years and have seen this kind of treatment before. It honestly does not end well. This, to me, seems like a completely wrong approach to nerfing Black Cleaver. If you look on Reddit and in other threads about this, there are hundreds of supporters of making Black Cleaver Unique. That is the only problem that exists with it. I haven't seen any threads saying the item is broken, but only that having stacked BC is broken.

There is no need to nerf the stats on it, to be honest. ESPECIALLY no need to nerf Brutalizer. That is the definition of approaching a nerf the wrong way. If one item has a problem (Black Cleaver) there's no reason to nerf another item to compensate. What about the champions that build Brutalizer and have no intention of going Black Cleaver?

THE ONLY THING that needs to be done, instead of nerfing stats, is to make it all unique! I encourage you to look at the reddit threads, particularly this one, and you will see that the majority of people believe it to be fine (as well they should) if the only change was to make the item unique. Simple as that.


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

12-08-2012

The majority of people can often be wrong about a subject. I wouldn't go poll people on the street if I wanted to design a nuclear reactor.


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Talith PA

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Incredibly disappointing direction on the change.


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xvietboyxlr8

Junior Member

12-08-2012

First nerfing teemo and now this silly BC stacking. Gj Riot Im proud of u. The BC is now balanced. People need to realize that this is bound to happen to balance things out since we already have the new armor penetration calculation implemented and the current arpen is just too high.Having bruisers oneshotting ppl has never been sillier.

Good news to support and tank players, you can reinstall LoL now.


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blackDAILO

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Text from Surrenderat20.net:

Quote:
12/7 PBE Update:

Balance Changes

Black Cleaver

Armor Penetration changed to Unique
Armor Penetration reduced to 10 from 15
Passive effect now reduces armor by 6.25% per stack down from 7.5%


Brutilizer

Armor Penetration reduced to 10 from 15.
The nerf on flat pen is too extreme and unnecessary imo.


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Mad Suppordle

Senior Member

12-08-2012

There was a good bit of support for removing the hp from the item instead of nerfing flat pen (the % shred needed to be hit, that's fine)


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Black Cleaver is broken, not just stacking. It needed a nerf.


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Darkomantis

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
1. Make Armor Penetration on Ghostblade and Black Cleaver UNIQUE so that they don't stack with each but Armor Penetration from Ghostblade/Cleaver can stack with Brut(like in S2)
2. Black Cleaver's Passive is now UNIQUE ( I think this would eliminate the BC stacking)
EDIT:
3. Remove health component
4. CDR is now UNIQUE
The quote above is what I think will make it balanced. Not sure about your proposed changes.