Black Cleaver pt. 2

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DG Denz Brujah

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Like Orphane said Why would you not allow Brutalizer to stack with Black Cleaver or Ghostblade Using Brutalizer and stacking it with a finished item is an item slot you're trading off for the increased arpen. I'm okay with Brutalizer stacking with its upgrades, but I'm not okay with the same upgrade stacking with itself (ie.Multiple Ghostblades/Cleavers).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DG Denz Brujah

Senior Member

12-07-2012

ps. making BC passive unique should solve all problems


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Skulleer

Member

12-07-2012

That would be terrible if you couldn't stack the pen items with each other. Talon would be less viable than he was pre-patch. I'd rather have ghostblade and brutalizer stay how they've always been stat-wise and stackable with each other and lose black cleaver altogether than change them.

I think there has been an overreaction to black cleaver that is dragging pen as a stat and the other pen items with it. First pull the health off of cleaver and/or make it not stack, and then see what happens before you nerf ad casters into oblivion.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Blizzmaster

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denz Brujah View Post
Like Orphane said Why would you not allow Brutalizer to stack with Black Cleaver or Ghostblade Using Brutalizer and stacking it with a finished item is an item slot you're trading off for the increased arpen. I'm okay with Brutalizer stacking with its upgrades, but I'm not okay with the same upgrade stacking with itself (ie.Multiple Ghostblades/Cleavers).
This is how I feel. Items stacking with themselves is lame, and discourages build diversity (especially in this case where an item has everything an AD caster could ever want).

If you want to max armor pen, you should be building a Ghostblade, a Cleaver, Last Whisper, and a Brutalizer (if you really want to), not 4 Cleavers.

I've never been a fan of same-item stacking anyways. In general, I'd rather have all champions building 6 different items in a game, and never stacking any item. Good for build diversity!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mad Suppordle

Senior Member

12-07-2012

I think after a nerf to the % pen, all that is needed is to stop cleaver stacking with itself. No need to make the flat pen single item exclusive, it can still stack with other pen items. Just not itself. Also the hp and cdr.

Basically, make every stat on cleaver unique.
edit: OR remove the hp from the item.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cauldrath

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Personally, I think the problem isn't so much Cleaver stacking, as the fact that you can get your % pen/reduction so high that the cost of pen is cheaper than the cost of armor and the amount of effective health you get from armor is so low that there is never a reason to buy it instead of health. It's a problem with the new penetration calculations which will persist as long as large amounts of % pen/reduction are available, whether it is from Darius' E or Black Cleaver.

I made a more detailed thread on this that got buried in General Discussion: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2873749


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Skulleer

Member

12-07-2012

In Season 2, if you did a full pen build (31 flat from runes/masteries, 52% from the aura, mastery and last whisper, 20 from ghost blade and 15 from brutalizer) your first hit would treat someone with 100 armor as though it was 16, and 200 armor as though it was 64.

With the proposed changes and a full pen build (24 flat from runes/masteries, 40% from LW and the mastery, 15 from ghost blade) your first hit would treat someone with 100 armor as though it's 21 armor and 200 armor as though it's 81. Plus, you'd be losing out on the CDR from having another brutalizer.

We're moving backward here and nerfing an already weak AD Caster class because black cleaver is a bomb.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Talith PA

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Going to reiterate my opinion that the %pen is a touch high and the health is the biggest problem on the item. Everything else should be able to stack (faster applications included) because that is what you are spending gold and slots to do. You shouldn't get more durable as you negate other's durability.


Edit: Here is the latest changes on the PBE:

Black Cleaver
Armor Penetration changed to Unique
Armor Penetration reduced to 10 from 15
Passive effect now reduces armor by 6.25% per stack down from 7.5%

Brutilizer
Armor Penetration reduced to 10 from 15.

So it's the armor penetration and not the health that is getting a unique tag. And brut was nerfed as well for some reason. So if you have a cleaver and a brutalizer and you upgrade it to another cleaver, all you gain is AD and health but you lose penetration.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Skulleer

Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talith PA View Post
Going to reiterate my opinion that the %pen is a touch high and the health is the biggest problem on the item. Everything else should be able to stack (faster applications included) because that is what you are spending gold and slots to do. You shouldn't get more durable as you negate other's durability.


Edit: Here is the latest changes on the PBE:

Black Cleaver
Armor Penetration changed to Unique
Armor Penetration reduced to 10 from 15
Passive effect now reduces armor by 6.25% per stack down from 7.5%

Brutilizer
Armor Penetration reduced to 10 from 15.

So it's the armor penetration and not the health that is getting a unique tag. And brut was nerfed as well for some reason. So if you have a cleaver and a brutalizer and you upgrade it to another cleaver, all you gain is AD and health but you lose penetration.
That's so incredibly disappointing. Meanwhile, mages can stack runes, masteries, sorc shoes, bft, abyssal, void staff.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Talith PA

Senior Member

12-07-2012

BFT and guise share the same passive so they don't stack. MR isn't as easy to stack in large chunks as armor though.