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[Feedback] Rengar should not have been nerfed like this

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Vivi R66

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Bump, Reds please


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Zengotitabengoa

Member

12-08-2012

I have been planning to buy rengar for some time now and learnt about him as much as I could. At the end of s2 it was obvious that he was too tanky and mobile for the damage he was dealing, not to the point of blatant OPness, but slightly over the top.

But really, this nerf (if it makes to live, that is) is quite the harsh thing on him. According to lolking (less accurate data than riot should have, but still enough to make my point) his win rate has been increasing since s3 patch, but it's still around 50% and show signs of stabilizing. Reason for this increase could be he's really super op, or it could be that people is not adapting to s3 itemization that fast (and Rengar is a champ that punishes mistakes REALLY hard), or it could be any other thing related to changes.

Let's see. The R nerf really makes sense. Rengar could get away from a lot of things just by using his ult, now he needs a plan. K, makes sense, even more with the hunting background he has. No hunter just rushes in without a plan and then retreats as fast as he rushed in.

W nerf, well, agreed this skill is a buff, agreed that flat 15%hp could be too much, and agreed that the damage really added a lot to his burst.

K, now i wonder, Diana showed us the same thing as Rengar in the last tournament, where she looked too tanky for the inmense burst she had, and got away with a 10/15/20/25/30 dmg decrease on her q, while Rengar had a 10/20/30/40/50 dmg nerf on his w, -5% max hp heal and ult nerf. Yes, I know that I shouldn't compare different champs, but the problem was more or less the same and the treatment is pretty different.

So, in short, I think he deserved the ult nerf, but i'm not so sure about W nerf, and even less sure about two nerfs on the same skill. A lot of things changed, item sinergies did too (I use teemo, and I admit that he has way too much sinergy with new items, but don't think this is true for rengar), players are adapting and numbers will show the usual spikes when a big change comes in. Rengar was nerfed because of his s2 performance, but we're not in s2 anymore, and I don't think his case is as blatant as teemo's one to act this quickly and in this severe way. Let's hope most of those changes just remain "unofficial".


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Zengotitabengoa:
Let's see. The R nerf really makes sense. Rengar could get away from a lot of things just by using his ult, now he needs a plan. K, makes sense, even more with the hunting background he has. No hunter just rushes in without a plan and then retreats as fast as he rushed in.

This is the crux of Rengar's design flaw. He's not supposed to be using his ult as an escape. They nerfed its cooldown a long time ago because people were using it as such. They just nerfed it again so that he must activate it early when he knows he needs to escape.

This is a flawed design.
What I want is: an ult that gives bonus speed and vision of opponents but only gives stealth and his passive if he's not within sight range of enemy champions. (sight wards and minions do not count)
Riot should forget the timer delay. It only becomes another "hoop to jump through" for players to continue using him the opposite way that he was designed. People will still use it to escape, they are just being more annoyed while doing so.
Quote:
W nerf, well, agreed this skill is a buff, agreed that flat 15%hp could be too much, and agreed that the damage really added a lot to his burst.

The W nerf is a horrible idea. He already has the worst base health regen of all champions. ALL of them. Even at level 18, ALL of them have better regen than him by a WIDE margin. They nerfed his base stats into the ground because of his W, NOW they nerf the W so he doesn't regen at all unless he gives up all his Gold Spells to regen. This is a flawed design.
If they want to cut out 33% of his health regen that actually works, then put back his base stats.
If they want to cut back on the damage, then put extra duration on his buffs.


All in all: I am still pretty pissed.
Riot made a champion design that was good, accidentally broke him for laning purposes, nerfed him to fix him in lane, later nerfed him to compensate for an ult that abused past its design and, all the while, refused to attend to his original champion design: a jungler.


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Zenmetsu Saseru

Senior Member

12-08-2012

When Rengar first came out, he was clunky and glitchy beyond belief. How he got out of the PBE feeling like a wreck was beyond me. I figured out how to play him and was having fun, now even more fun when he could actually attack without stopping in the middle of it and I didn't have to compensate. But for some reason, that equated to "being broken". Honestly, lets start where everything started to go wrong:

Quote:
V1.0.0.147b:
Rengar can no longer speak his VO lines when he is dead
Unseen Predator:
After leaping, Rengar will now immediately attack the target if it is a Champion.
Jumping between targets is now smoother.
Unseen Predator now correctly shows up in death recap.
Savagery:
Damage increased to 30/60/90/120/150 from 30/55/80/105/130.
The attack speed bonus now applies to his first attack after activation.
Battle Roar:
No longer has a cast time (can be cast while moving).
Ability power ratio reduced to 0.8 from 1.
Rengar no longer loses his attack command after using Battle Roar.
Bola Strike:
Now procs Sheen, Trinity Force, and Lich Bane.
Thrill of the Hunt:
Movement Speed bonus increased to 20/25/30% from 10/15/20%.

Even as someone who is a bit greedy, the flat damage increase here made little sense, it was already doing fine amounts of damage. It may have helped him in jungling, but not by much.

While I don't think this made any actual difference, I don't know why they reduced the AP ratios on him. I've seen many AP Rengar's running about and they all lost. Even to my own Rengar. Not going to argue to change it back, just saying that it was fairly pointless to actually do it for something that wasn't working to begin with.

Quote:
V1.0.0.148:
Savagery:
Cooldown increased to 8/7.5/7/6.5/6 seconds from 6 seconds at all ranks.
Battle Roar:
Damage reduced to 60/100/140/180/220 from 75/120/165/210/255.
Armor and magic resist bonus reduced to 15/22/29/36/43 from 20/30/40/50/60.

Now this was terribly frustrating, until now did I realize how much this changed my game. The CD for Savagery was excellent where it was, I could harass and eat some while I was at it because we desperately needed it. Getting to full Ferocity was so much easier, but now I have to weigh in really hard with Bola at level 3 to either keep up with the Ferocity gain rate, or wait until the cooldown ends and then risk serious life and limb to get that one minion that the other guy may have four of before that one. Serious hamper on collecting resources. I know what some of you are thinking, "Why are you not using bolo to farm?". I do, a lot. But only when they are close to my bush. I like my bush control and will do little to get away from it.

The W nerf. This really started to push my buttons. His jungling wasn't terrible, but it was the greatest either, but this slowed it down to a insurmountable crawl that prevented ganking sooner by quite a bit. The armor was needed to perform as a bruiser, how else was he also supposed to start a fight without simply melting or take on the heavy hitters without some small advantage that only lasts a quarter through most of their fights? This also really prevents me from catching skillshots for my other squishy teammates. Now I have to hope that they will not be there when that log come at them, because I can't hep any more.

Funny how this actually didn't change statistics at the time.
Quote:

V1.0.0.149:

Fixed a bug where Rengar could double jump.

By everything that is holy, how is this a freaking deal? If Jax and Lee Sin can jump to wards to get away, why cant Rengar simply use this (rarely, and fairly difficulty performed trick I feel) perfectly acceptable event? Even a few of the Reds said it was working exactly as intended. For 0.5 seconds of leaving the bush, he could jump. There was no limit, therefore doing it twice in a rather rare case was perfectly acceptable.

Quote:
V1.0.0.150:

General:
Base health regeneration reduced to 4 from 8.
Health regeneration per level reduced to 0.4 from 0.8.
Bonetooth Necklace no longer grants a base +10 Attack Damage.
Empowered Savagery:
Attack damage ratio reduced to 2.0 from 2.5.
Thrill of the Hunt:
Stealth duration reduced to 5 seconds from 7.
Cooldown increased to 140/105/70 seconds from 120/85/50.


All of this was just flat out wrong. No excuses I feel. How can one jungle without ability to sustain themselves in between valuable resourced based, long cooldown abilities? How can he even lane when his only option to respond to a lane bully is when they look at you you take days to heal when they are already back to something they can effectively fight with? Riven, a lovely top laner, has a massive amount of health regen. Which makes sense, she doesn't have a sustain like everyone else, but is heavily armored and has a rather hefty shield to go with it making up for the lack of heal. My point on this, Rengar's regen was inferior to hers by 20%, and now it is by 60%. And I don't want to hear anyone say that, "he has a free heal". This has little to no weight in a argument. Rengar has to chose between more damage, a root and his heal which in some situations can lead to ruin, because he did one, but needed it just a moment later. Then he needs to build up his Ferocity all over again, in a fight that just pretty much ended where there are no minions to farm and too dangerous to go back in to use five abilities that cannot be used quickly enough to gain the bonus. When ever asked who has a free heal, I always use Warwick as an example. Sure his abilities use mana, sometimes quite a big chunk of it, but that damned swing of his hits so hard and everyone that he can maim and heal a massive bit.

Bonetooth, how I will miss you. This was a really fun item. Fun way to keep track of what you've done in a game and you don't lose too much when you screw up. Taking out that base ten damage defeated the purpose of having it. All of the things he could get with his trophies were just fluff and really helpful only some of the time, save for the extra leap distance, sometimes I wish I had that but not often enough to buy a now expensive item that doesn't benefit you very well right off the bat.

This Savagery nerf was harsh in my opinion, if this was so "over powered", then nerf Pantheons Q. That thing will do more damage than this ever will and it is 90% guaranteed kill. Doesn't work on Poppy or Malphite? Don't be surprised that an assassin can't kill a tank.

This was incredibly frustrating and possibly one of the worse moves for him. Getting to mid field for a gank wasn't easy to begin with, but now it's really hard. Not to mention that both the cooldown and length make it impossible to counter gank. This was the only thing that protected him in the jungle, when he he was in their jungle. Some champions have their own ways of finding the other jungler others just straight up don't care and will happily wonder in the other jungle, thinking it's their own. Rengar is squishy as hell at this point and stupid vulnerable, he will always lose a fight in the jungle early game if he doesn't control the conditions of the fight. This includes the nerf too, now he can't find anyone in time nor gank any more frequently. I can't help but feel that this also was a ploy to force a Bonetooth. Which is both rude and stupid, since you need all stacks to increase the duration anyway, which you cannot do in a early game unless you are doing five-man ganks.


Coupled with these new truly unjustified "balancing" changes, why take out a champion entirely? At least Twitch could still play very well (Even before the rework, did rather well with him and had fun too). If a champion has a stealth ability, it will be used for escape. But I've almost never run from a fight if I could help decide the outcome. If the entire team was going to die, then I will leave and keep the other team from getting the ace gold or even a possible pentakil. I've said this before, and I will say it again: That IPL5 game was a testament to excellent skill and really, really bad gameplay from Azubu Blaze. Kog'ma could have easily revealed him and then Rengar would have died for showing off like the dope that he was. No need to punish everyone else for their mistakes and for something that I doubt Rengar wasn't already designed for.


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Zenmetsu Saseru, very good post, this shows us how the tried many nerfs and all in the wrong areas, now instead of reverting rengar to his former self before trying different nerfs, they are jsut overdoing it by nerfing his utility...
His kit was great because of the utility he brings to the team, not because his ratios are too high or his base damages are too high.


And also you showed how bad the nerfs to W are:

Quote:
Now deals 50/80/110/140/170 (down from 75/120/165/210/255)
Armor and magic resist bonus reduced to 15/22/29/36/43 from 20/30/40/50/60.
Now heals for 10% of max health, (down from 15%)


The W in the jungle was VERY important, specially after you removed his health regen, now the base damage is so terrible that a cdr rengar build will clear 23seconds SLOWER than before this second nerf to W, and the cdr build from my tests was and still is the one with the most sustain (sustain that is now crappy also!)

The CDR Utility build, 4/5/21 for example, gave him mobility for ganks, extra gold, extra pot at start, 10% cdr allowing him to empowered Q the blue golem and 7 less seconds on smite... but now i see myself forced to go 21/9/0 or else i will just be the slowest jungler of the game. I feel like i am losing all those stats because of this nerf, its a massive nerf for me...

The Q cooldown nerf also hurt his ability to early jungle very very badly, its impossible for him to get 5 stacks for Blue/Red buff unless you are using cdr runes and masteries, and even with 10% cdr you gotta use 2 Qs on blue to access the empowered Q.
This makes his single target damage just terrible for the first buff and this makes him lose over 70% of his hp doing blue for example, if you reverted AT LEAST this nerf, he would be able to jungle fine.
He maybe would not have real sustain, but at least his clear would be as fast as others and the first buff wouldnt be so brutal on him (clear wolvs and blue by yourself, and look at your health bar, do this simple test, dont use pots, even with 2 pots used i always finish at 20%~30% hp).

Talking about clear times, his fastest current time on PBE i got on many many tests is 3:56, 11 seconds slower than other junglers who get 3:45 easily (even jungle Darius who isnt MADE to be a jungler), and that 3:56 time is with no sustain at all, even a support could walk in the jungle and kill me of so low i finish the Lv4 clear.



Riot, please speak up and dont let the changes hit Live, or revert some nerfs to make up for it, his first clear needs help if you nerf him more. We cant keep walking arround the nerfs to make Rengar fun and useful, this is the point we cant solve anymore, his Lv1 to Lv4 sustain and speed is impossible to get better from all i tested, your nerfed him terribly


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Did a topic on general to try to at least get some insight...
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=32234069


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IS118da62a7bb137aeb0685

Senior Member

12-09-2012

riot must review those nerfs
it will kill him completely if they go live


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Fknlyu

Junior Member

12-09-2012

Better nerf Rengar. Harharharhar. (On a more serious note, I also dislike it when Riot goes into r*tard-mode with all of these ridiculous nerfs/buffs) To be honest, I don't think any of his nerfs should be reverted. I can understand why people would want this to happen though, as his clear time is significantly worse than most junglers out there and he's heavily reliant on ganks for gold in the early stages of the game. However, this is mainly in solo queue (usually in normal) where your derpy team barely helps you out with the first half of your clear because they are utterly desperate to get into their lanes and start failing their cs lol. However, in a proper team with decent composition and teamwork, Rengar is still pretty formidable when played correctly. If he is to be buffed, there should only be slight changes or we're going to have more issues involving players whining about how he's over-powered once again. At the moment, Rengar has a win-rate around 51% (in all queues). He is in a decent position now and should definitely not be nerfed again (I cannot stress more about how stupid that would be), however I believe the real issue with Rengar lies within normal queue. (OH AND BUFF BONETOOTH, SERIOUSLY)


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IS118da62a7bb137aeb0685

Senior Member

12-09-2012

new thread with suggestions

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=32254978


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demonfood

Member

12-10-2012

they shouldnt have buffed him in the first place. he was balanced when he was released. where do you think the trouble came from anyways? fixing something that wasnt broken, thats where