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[Feedback] Rengar should not have been nerfed like this

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IonDragonX

Senior Member

12-07-2012

This is really pissing me off.

Rengar needs to be fixed so that he can jungle without a leash and you see fit to NERF him AGAIN?

He's been hit with something like eight nerfs to his original kit now.

The game shifted away from his abilities in Season 3 when they made the big jungle creeps twice as tough and do 20-40% more damage. Rengar's burst and sustain, which is non existent in the jungle, can't get him to survive. Rengar needs at least level 3 or 4 to get either his burst or sustain.

There HAS to be some EARLY REINFORCEMENT so that Rengar jungle the way that he was designed!!

Please increase his buff durations by 2 seconds! Increase his base health per second back to what it was! Give back the 7 second stealth if you see fit to make a long delay for it to activate!

Edit: added my thoughts below from page 4
After all is said and done, they wanted to design Rengar to be a tanky jungle master with a great gap closer/initiate and super chasing skills.
They accidentally made a super sustain lane bully that has a fantastic escape for an ultimate.

I still think that to fix him:
1) Extend the Q and W stat buffs to 5 seconds.
2) Remove his Q's ability to hit structures.
3) Lower his W heal to 5%+(2%AP)
4) Increase his W's resistances by 5
5) Restore his health regen (base and per level) back to his original stat
6) Remove the delay on his R
7) Remove his R's stealth when he is in combat (2 second rule)
8) Extend his R's buff to 7 seconds.

The next thing you know, he's no longer an OP lane bully, can't use his R to escape very well. Has to set up his stealth for initiation almost exclusively, controls the jungle creep a lot better and doesn't push down towers like mad (hunter's don't hunt buildings.....)

Quote:
C00LST0RYBR0:
- Ulti 2- 3s delay.
- W massive damage nerf!
- W heal nerf by 33%.
Seriously Riot. One nerf, maybe two is fine, but this? Why would you put a champion from Tier 1 directly to Tier 6?
Quote:
Darklarik:
Hahahahahhaha... Oh riot. Your funny yah know that? really really funny >: (
While your at it? why not reduce his Q's Scaling to 50% instead of 100%. And make his Stealth last 3 seconds instead of 5.
Quote:
Vivi R66:
Okay, so you want him to be a jungler, thats good, but then his sustain sucks until he gets to Lv4, and now you nerfed the sustain even harder.
You nerfed Q damage, Q cooldown, W damage, W defensive buff, W heal, Ult duration, Ult speed buff, Ult cooldown and Ult activation, oh, base stats also.
And i bet i forgot a cooldown nerf on W or E...
This is getting ridiculous, before he survived the nerfs but was very hard on him, now you are overdoing it.
Is it like old Eve and Twitch rework, you guys thend to valorize stealth so much you think its fair to nerf characters to the point of useless, they arent allowed to be good if they can surprise attack ya?
Is that because of the oracles nerf? Try to make stealth champs "more balanced" as the enemy tank wont keep the oracles forever?
Rengar has a bad winrate, in competitive play he rocks, but he has a bad winrate, meaning he isnt easy to play as only pros bring him deadly potential... So if you are balancing arround that, its unfair, a champ should be allowed to be good if he is hard to play, its the trade off you get from learning.
Anyway, back to the jungle, before the stupid nerfs, his sustain would only get not suicidal after Lv4, and you would be forced to use W for heal instead of Q for clear speed, the nerfs will make the tradeoff go stupidly bad, as the W got less damage, you wont clear as fast, and you got less heal.
Makes ZERO sense to me that you want him to jungle (starting item machete), but then nerf him like that, he wont be a good jungler, he wont be a good top, he is screwed, and the nerfs arent needed.
Please explain why the nerfs with the most indepth you can give.
Quote:
NoobMule:
He sucks so much right now...maybe I am playing him wrong...any pointers?
Quote:
Vanilla Honeydew:
It's true that Rengar needed a nerf, but this one was too far. Rengar is now just a pusher because of his inability to do barely any damage as a bruiser does. I think that Rengar needs a buff again, but not a huge one to give Riot another chance to ruin Rengar. He needs to be buffed or else no one will play him like Sejuani.
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Nekrocow:
If this really happens, R.I.P. Rengar...
Quote:
Epitaxy1:
You were released into the wild, alone but hungry, you got some attention and was able to find your path.
After some time, you were taken to a zoo and tamed, but your spirit and ferocity were still harbored somewhere deep inside you. It cannot get much worse than being a pridestalker trapped behind bars, but you did what you could with it and managed to carry the embarrassment. doubt, and weakness upon your shoulders. Your title was only kept because you managed to not drop below a mediocre level.
Things today, however, have changed. The zoo has wrangled you into submission and put you down. They moved you, laughed at you while they replaced you with some stupid, overgrown bug. They took away all the remaining tools you had and stomped them into pieces.
Why, why did this happen to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Mz1nQEQ6UAQ#t=203s
Quote:
Atyres:
I am hoping to hear from a red as to why exactly an ultimate skill is being nerfed to the ground below a regular skill from another champion? What to me made Rengar's ult feel like an ult was that he was able to immediately slip into stealth and it lasted a bit longer than other similar stealths. Now what do we have? A skill that requires you to not be hit in order to go into stealth with any sort of expediency. Shaco immediately stealths and flashes at the same time and deals an auto minicrit on the next attack. Twitch has the same movement stealth mechanic now, but also gains a movement speed, longer stealth and an attack speed bonus. Eve is always stealth until combat.
So what exactly makes Rengars ult an ult? It may give ferocity, but if you blow your long CD for the ult, you are now having to wait 3.75 seconds to gain your bar back, only a 10% extra movement speed than twitch at level 3 and one jump while stealthed. There is no real strength to his ult anymore. So what is the justification for making this "ultimate" skill of his worse than Shaco's and Twitch's normal abilities? Twitches lasts for 8 seconds, longer than the poor pride stalkers. Shaco can use his ability as a gap closer and escape as well, except his can go over walls and immediately grants a boon where as Rengar has to wait.
Would love to hear a red's opinion on the rational for these changes, because at the moment I feel as if this is a knee jerk reaction to one tournament and the complaints of people who do not wish to adapt to different champions (not pro's mind you but some of the more boisterous people on the forums).
Quote:
Pure White Lover:
By giving him a delay when entering stealth and having it delayed further if hit, like I suggested ages ago here. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2709171
Can you now give us something to compensate for the next batch of nerfs?
Like perhaps giving back the 7 second ultimate?
Or buffing his Bonetooth Necklace back into viability?
Or giving us some more health regen since you are neutering his W?
I kinda feel like every time players find a way to play around nerfs you nerf that method as well.
Quote:
whouthink:
Well if Riot actually thought it through they would put the fade timer on but rebuff his ult duration. The entire point of it is hunting people/initiation. Nerfing the duration was dumb.
And they should have just made his heal and Q AD ratio scale with level before raping the numbers so much.
Quote:
RaptoRGmo7:
Rengar
Battle Roar's damage decreased to 50/80/110/140/170 from 60/100/140/180/220
Thrill of the Hunt now has a short delay before his stealth, 1.25 seconds and delayed up to 3 seconds if hit.
Really? :'(
RENGAR NEVER WAS OP!!!!!!
http://educacion-infantil.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/o1.jpg
Quote:
olipops:
comeon really more rengar nerfs :/
Quote:
xAteomanx:
Is that true?? I think that rengar has get enough Nerf
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aces2kj:
Why is rengar getting another nerf why do you hate him so much the last nerf made him useless and now your decreasing Battle roar damage, it never did too much damage in the first place and thrill of the hunt has a delay of 1 sec and 3 if he gets hit why is rengar so hated by riot
P.S
I want a refund for rengar ran out of refund tokens hes so much **** now
Quote:
Chilled Nova:
ARE YOU ******* KIDDING ME?
He already is not that viable but now you're nerfing him harder? How is he meant to fight any top laner or jungle now? and don't even try to solo a kha'zix even when not isolated. I really hate to say it Riot, but you murdered my favorite champion. I tried to give the nerfed Rengar a chance, played him multiple times, lost every lane ( given i can play Rengar considerably well ). I just really hate to say it, but RIP Rengar, you will rot in the usless champion bin.
what's your opinion on this subject Riot and the community do you think he will still have a place in league? Also why all the nerfs Riot, I'd like to hear your opinions on this.
Quote:
gullitomb:
back in season 2 i completely loved rengar, even after his nerf i played him a lot.
but with season 3, i was happy as hell with the new items. i though maybe the old rengar was coming back and he could be a bruiser/assassin again like he is supposed to be, but this nerf bat just turned into a nerf hammer for god sakes. he's going to be worthless in the jungle now, he was already at a pretty low clear spead with little survivability until around lvl 4. but by then he will probably have to back anyways. and another nerf on his ult? it was already pretty unimpressive as 5 seconds. but this is bull. i mean, come on, he NEEDS his ult for tricks. . then nerf his jungle, and now his top, yes i know his top was incredibly strong. but so is jayce? hell. pick garen or lee sin and just stomp rengar. everyone has their counter. sorry im posting so much, just trying to waste some time. im just very unhappy with some of the changes that are coming with S3. i miss the old black cleaver to death. but im completely in love with the new tiamat and RH. the upgrades from manamune/archangels are beautiful and feel very satisfying when you get them to their third tier. the boots were a great idea, but some of the effects i just don't really like (homeguard/whatever that support one is called) and that 25% cooldown on flash is beautiful for ap mids. but back on the topic of rengar, i hope some of these nerfs are thought over again, atleast keep his Q damage as it is now, strong early, decent late. i just don't see why he needs to be nerfed again, and so hard. people really love and enjoy this champ, but he's gunna turn into another low tier, never played champ. and i don't want to see that because, well, he's one of my mains. can some people tell me their thoughs on this.... rant?
(please don't downvote me for my thoughts ) D:
Quote:
Varaxael:
Well, the good news is that Rengar feels fixed! The bad news is, he feels like he got fixed at the veterinarian's office. He's still playable - despite a certain stiffness and a sometimes irresistible urge to scratch the stitches and mourn what was lost, he goes about his business much like before. But he lacks that certain dash.
Emasculation does that to a guy.
At this point you've probably decided that I'm complaining about the nerfs. The many, many nerfs. But that's not the case. Aside from the 20% nerf to Bonetooth Necklace's damage component, I think they made sense; that 250% ratio on Savagery scaled way too well into the late game.
Now, however, the things that made Jungle Rengar powerful feel much-reduced. In essence, it's not Rengar which has changed, but that he simply doesn't interact well with the new jungle, new items, and new masteries. I don't feel that Rengar is able to do his job well enough in the jungle any longer to really be a good champion. Sure, I can pressure the lanes and get kills; I can finish off enemy players if I position well, but I'm not able to really jump in and burst people any more unless I want to die horribly and fast.
That Alpha Predator feel that attracted me to Rengar in the first place is gone.
First: Ganking damage has been reduced. To eliminate the jungler's ability to camp lanes while still clearing his camps, the difficulty of jungle creeps has been increased, and the Hunter's Machete feels mandatory - but it does no damage to players. Madred's razors, the next item up, STILL deals no damage to players. You don't get any player damage at all till you buy the Vampiric Scepter component for Wriggle's Lantern. This leaves you far behind on damage when you start to gank, because the enemy lane champions probably aren't buying dedicated jungle items. So assuming they're not using the excellent warding options now available, and you catch them overextended, you still have a much harder time achieving the kill. The difference is minor, but it's noticeable, and affects you for the entire game, especially since...
Second, it's freaking hard, in general, to catch people these days. Between the movement speed buff to everyone, the 7.5%-15% snare reduction Mastery (depending on points used,) the new options on boots, movement speed Masteries, the reduction of snare items' effectiveness, and the nerf to (especially early) ganking damage, it's quite simply very hard to catch people and kill them before they reach their tower, even with snare items like Phage and Frozen Mallet. Now, it's not that I can't ever catch people, and certainly it shouldn't be impossible to get away from someone just because they bought Frozen Mallet and your Flash is down, but it's still a noticeable increase in survivability against ganks. And of course...
Finally, jungling is much more dangerous now. The increased difficulty and reward scaling causes junglers to be at less than full health a lot more of the time, and for longer in the game. This is, of course, intended, and I think it's a good idea. But for a champion who has no true escapes once his ultimate is down (and really wants to use the ult to kill things anyway) this is a huge increase to the risk of ganking - and the reward for that level of risk doesn't feel like it's there.
So to summarize; I like the new jungle, I like the new items, and I like the new Masteries. But I don't think Jungle Rengar has weathered the changes very well. The reduced effectiveness of his Bola Strike, a substantial reduction in damage during much of his laning phase, and substantially increased risk (due to chronically low hp and lack of escapes) of committing to a gank are significantly reducing his effectiveness in the Jungling role -where he used to be considered the strongest.
Quote:
KillerShadow46:
Riot rengar doesnt need a nerf at all ask phreak to jungle with rengar now in the new season 3 jungle and you guys will see his frustration and rengar is supposed to be a "jungler". If rengar is getting changes they should be buffs to his sustain not nerfs...
I already tried to jungle with him on the pbe and its just ridiculous how much hp u loose.
I dont know what makes u guys at riot still think hes op cause he is only strong in top lane and only if u know how to play him cause common top lane champions dont give him a nice tine its actually hard to beat them since now rengar has less health regen than an adc...
What i want is for rengar to stay the same or get buffed cause if hes stays the same he will be a strong/viable option in the top lane and if he gets buffed he will be able to jungle again.
But reducing the damage on his roar and also reducing the % of healing it has is just dumb cause most of the time u use that skill to stay alive or hp even with ur matchup not to bully him rengar is a balanced solo top champion right now and should only get changed if its going to make him viable in the jungle again
also making his ult take so long to stealth is pointless cause lets take the example of twitch making his stealth take time is a good way to control him not escaping from everything cause that is his q ability... But in rengar is his freaking ultimate he should be able to escape any situation instantly cause we are not talking about a 10 cd ability we are talking about his ultimate and ultimates should be strong, powerfull and unique abilities.
So please riot dont nerf him again.
Hes not able to jungle anymore dont take his laning potential too just because the noobs complain about him.
please riot trust me if u nerf him again noobs will still complain and they wont be satisfied until he ends up completely useless.
Please DONT NERF HIM AGAIN.
Quote:
General A6:
If you're gonna nerf Rengar on Live he has to use empowered W 90% just to keep himself sustained because his health regen is so ****
if the nerf to W will go live he will have to use it 100% of the time so you might as well delete empowered Q and E
Quote:
SeigneurLemieux:
Sometimes if you nerf an ability directly, another characteristic of the champion will indirectly be nerfed.
It is the case with Rengar's sustain. His Base Hp/5 was nerfed (~ halved) a few patches ago to compensate the fact that W was too great of a sustain inlane. His Hp/5 sustain was aggressively nerfed because W needed a nerf.
But now, by lowering W's healing by 1/3, his sustain went down by alot since Rengars won't use Emporerd W as often and when they do it won't heal as much.
Since his sustain took a huge hit, it would be a good timing to put his Hp/5 on a more reasonable number. Right now it's the lowest of the game at any level, and by alot. I've always felt like if you have to nerf base stats SO MUCH because of the champion's kit, then do not look elsewhere: the kit itself is broken. Fix it. Don't kill a champion's base stats because of it.
A little statistic:
Rengar's HP/5 at lvl 18 : 11.2
Riven's hp/5 at lvl ONE: 11.3
Quote:
Zhané:
So you have nerfed him into the ground. He used to do ok top lane and with the 1st nerf to his Q which i can understand but after the Q nerf he would have to play smart to beat tops like olaf or yorick (tanky tops). Now you can't play him really top. As far as the jungle i'm not sure because i'm not the best jungler but when I did jungle i was outleveled. So this last nerf was it really needed? His win rate was 50% isn't that what you wanted riot a 50% chance of winning because if you played against other skilled players that the matchmaking is supposed to put you against you would win 50/50? What can rengar do now? Oh and now his win rate is about 35-45% People that complained saying he was op just got outplayed. I had a Olaf say i was op.... OLAF really op? because olaf isn't op at all right..... olaf beats rengar but if rengar can juke him around then rengar wins now rengar can't even do that. Lets look at op champs Leblanc is a huge nuke, Darius the king of op, diana could beat him not sure now since they were both nerfed, Eve is another HUGE nuke, Kat is a pretty strong nuke, Olaf is a tanky god that does dmg with building hp because of his E, Malph the god of op build armor then gg, Rek cc stun then ult and dead ya he wins, rumble a god top farmer (which you nerfed and reverted that because he was useless. oh look rengar is useless). My point is he wasn't op. people just didn't know how to play against him and still don't it seems like. In his spotlight his job was to start a teamfight then ult and take out the high prioty targets well he can't do that now can he since it will be 3 seconds before he is stealthed, oh wait he is dead in 3 seconds since his heal is nerfed. He wasn't broken before and you continue to beat on him. He was hard to play against yes but every team that bought oracles stopped him in his tracks with that. What can you do on him now riot. Now i'm prepared for the bunch of kids to comment and say "oh qq my favorite champ isn't op anymore so he is broken qq". I will not respond to you because there are people that will read this and agree that he is now broken and wasn't op before. Please riot give rengar some love because no one will play him now since he is useless.
Quote:
CanadianGuyEh:
Why is rengar given yet ANOTHER nerf??? When Rengar came out, everyone crapped them selves in fear due to this predator that lurks through the shadows. Everyone stayed together in the jungle, anyone that was not with someone in the jungle they became Rengar food.
But the slew of nerfs to him ever since he came out has made this ruthless predator a pathetic little kitten and I can confidently counter jungle without an issue and all i would need to bring with me is a water spray bottle.
" "You dare enter my jungle?!"
* squirt squirt*
"UGGGH NOOOOO!" "
please give rengar a buff, he has one of the lowest health regain in the game, clocking in at 0.88 health regain at level 1. This giving him no sustain in the jungle, his battle roar with 5 stacks gives a decent amount but now you nerfed that too! his ult cant be used as a escape as much anymore due to the delay of him going invisible.


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Darklarik

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Lol. He did not need the previous nerfs either.

They either wont stop until he is like eve, after which he might get a rework. Personally, i feel people should have refunded him while they could.

Riot is funny. Specifically, Nerf Master Suck Town is funny.


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Typhingblade

Senior Member

12-07-2012

I've learned to compensate with riot's extreme nerfs and well,

The Offencive-y Build I found that works was:
Machete>5 Health Pots
Longsword>Vampric>Boots
Avarice>Lv 2 Boots
Phage>Bf Sword>Lv 3 Boots
Bloodthirster/Zeal>Sheen
Trinity>Brutalizer
Spirit Visage>Black Cleaver
Sell Avarice>Last Whisper/Bt/Randuins

9/21/0 Going up to the Armor Pen% and grabbing max tenacious with the health, slow reduc, 1 legendary and 1 honor guard.

This is all PreS3, and requires some Flat Ad and armor pen runes to compensate for some areas.

But I also play a barrier smite jungle, just cause barrier gives that extra bit of absorption I need for all of my early-mid game.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Rengar's fine in the jungle, bro.

That said extra buff durations would be very nice.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Voidgolem:
Rengar's fine in the jungle, bro.
That said extra buff durations would be very nice.

He's NOT fine in the jungle. The amount of leash that he needs to finish quickly is really high. The opposing team knows this whenever they see Rengar with Smite. It's like asking for a level 1 invade.

His attack speed buff works with Machete but 3 seconds per 8 is just not enough. His armor buff would give a little resistance (if his base sustain wasn't the worst in the game) but 3 seconds per 15 is just terrible. If they bring down the damage from W fine, but increase the duration. If they increase the cooldown on his Q (which they did on the last nerf) then increase the duration.

The answer does not lie with nerfing Rengar into uselessness then forgetting about him. That's lazy development.

One other thing : Bonetooth Necklace
Now that AD items are cheaper, this item is worse than ever!! DO SOMETHING with it to make me care about using it, please!


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
IonDragonX:

One other thing : Bonetooth Necklace
Now that AD items are cheaper, this item is worse than ever!! DO SOMETHING with it to make me care about using it, please!


Thats true! Now you are forced to have a jungler item in your inventory, if you force yourself to getting bone necklace, rengar will have only 3 item spots, and you want cdr, resistences, health and damage... That wont happen, necklace is a never-buy item now lol


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Vivi R66:
Thats true! Now you are forced to have a jungler item in your inventory, if you force yourself to getting bone necklace, rengar will have only 3 item spots, and you want cdr, resistences, health and damage... That wont happen, necklace is a never-buy item now lol

Riot is planning to let Viktor have a Tier 3 of his personal item. It would be good if the Bonetooth Necklace kept pace.
Options :
1) They could make it "vanish" like the Elesia's Miracle. The stacks would continue going up and down.
2) They could give it a second tier. Pay 2000 gold, get a late game item. (They are doing this for Viktor's Hex Core, eventually)
3) They could make it build out of a Machete. Let it replace the functions of a Spirit Stone or Madred's Razors.
4) They could make Razors or Stone combine with a the Bonetooth Necklace to make a Tier 3 similar to Wriggles or Lizard Spirit.
5) They could just buff it.


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x7r4n3x

Senior Member

12-07-2012

rengar is already too easy to be good with. if u think u are alone in your struggle take a look at nocturnes buffs and nerfs. oh wait just nerfs. sometimes it happens and there has to be a reason. if u want to overcome it then get better at your champion


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

12-07-2012

"ur forced to build a jungle item!"

so is every other jungler ever. You'll note that Spirit of the Lizard Elder procs on W, and gives a nice amount of AD.

Failing that, Tenacity/Health/Armor from Golem.

Really the damn thing is only a handicap if you never upgrade or decide to go the Wriggles route.


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Darth Melkor

Senior Member

12-07-2012

1st off, these changes are subject to change before they hit live so I suggest keep testing these changes and give more detailed analysis so they can make a better call on which changes to do and not to do.

2nd, he's resourceless and only limited by CDR so it's really hard to balance these types of champs so once again thoroughly test with detailed results.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong or right and I'm neither for or against these nerfs, I haven't tried Rengar with these changes yet. I'm just giving my outside perspective and letting you know that if you want Riot to go back on these changes before they hit live, you should show more detailed results/analysis.