[Champion Concept] Helba The Master of Chaos

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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-17-2012

I would say specral swords is now balanced (again assuming the .8 scaling on the dot is total).

The ult is better, but still has room for improvement. Personally I'm not a fan of channels and fears, so realize this post will probably be biased. Anyhow, I think a 2 second channel for a small aoe ult which doesn't reposition you (i.e. fiddle ult) is too much becuase you'll rarely land it (it'll be like a nunu bush ult, effective if no one knows it's coming), and because the ult gives so much cc, I also don't think that it could be balanced without this channel. As for fear, I personally prefer a form of cc which is more predictable; regardless, most aoe ults w/ a cc (i.e. ori) max out at around 300 base damage at rank 3, and have .6-.8 AP scaling, even w/ the set up time I don't think you can reasonably argue that 500 dmg and 1:1 ap scaling is balanced.

My suggestion would be to get rid of the set up time, get rid of the fear, add some cc to your other abilities i.e. slows/roots which come into effect when the ult starts, reduce the base damage on the ult significantly, but make it do damage over time (10ish seconds maybe?) to everyone around you (i.e. Nekton or Nasus). I would reduce the max damage from what those champs have becuase unlike them she actually builds AP, and will benefit from the scaling ratio (I suggest .8-.9). This will increase the steroid function, enable counterplay, be more fun for the player, and allow you to reduce the cd to 45-60 seconds, which is better for a steroid.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Oh, a final note: since the ability is a steroid for your other abilities it doesn't need to do a ton of damage by itself. It should synergize with the rest of your kit without being the focus of your kit.


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Moby the White

Senior Member

12-17-2012

heh you thought she was successful XD HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL

the natural order of things is chaos, thus the natural chaos of things would thus be order.
One does not drop a handful of marbles only to have them align perfectly by color assortment.
One drops a handful of marbles to have them roll across the floor randomly.

it all depends on how you define what is order and what is chaos. Her purpose for clinging on to her identity is something that she can do so that she can find dante again.


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post

Cryo; haven't looked at the new stats yet, so I'll just respond to what I see in this message.

As for the debuff I think it should start lower, and scale up as she levels. Starting at 25% means that she gets a minimum of an additional 7.5 mr pen mid lane, and considering you can build 20 flat pen, this means she can almost deal true damage at level one. Add in sorc shoes, haunting guise, and abyssal scepter and her lane mate is screwed, because even building MR doesn't help them much against her, and her base damages are still high enough that she doesn't need to build AP to hurt.

Top lane this would be less of an issue, simply because most top laners have a lot of sustain mechanisms, and build more MR into their rune page. I do think the AOE debuff would be too good in team fights though, especially if you run someone like fiddle in the jungle, who already gives an aoe flat pen debuff. Even if you just run one other AP champ though, this amplifies their damage significanly, 7.5-20%, Fid's passive increases magic damage gnerally 10-20%, so actually this might be balanced if you get rid of the MR to AP conversion.

Duly noted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
I would say specral swords is now balanced (again assuming the .8 scaling on the dot is total).

The ult is better, but still has room for improvement. Personally I'm not a fan of channels and fears, so realize this post will probably be biased. Anyhow, I think a 2 second channel for a small aoe ult which doesn't reposition you (i.e. fiddle ult) is too much becuase you'll rarely land it (it'll be like a nunu bush ult, effective if no one knows it's coming) and because the ult gives so much cc, I also don't think that it could be balanced without this channel. As for fear, I personally prefer a form of cc which is more predictable; regardless, most aoe ults w/ a cc (i.e. ori) max out at around 300 base damage at rank 3, and have .6-.8 AP scaling, even w/ the set up time I don't think you can reasonably argue that 500 dmg and 1:1 ap scaling is balanced.

My suggestion would be to get rid of the set up time, get rid of the fear, add some cc to your other abilities i.e. slows/roots which come into effect when the ult starts, reduce the base damage on the ult significantly, but make it do damage over time (10ish seconds maybe?) to everyone around you (i.e. Nekton or Nasus). I would reduce the max damage from what those champs have becuase unlike them she actually builds AP, and will benefit from the scaling ratio (I suggest .8-.9). This will increase the steroid function, enable counterplay, be more fun for the player, and allow you to reduce the cd to 45-60 seconds, which is better for a steroid.
Maybe add a slow to Spectral Swords would help. She already has a gap-closer in the form of a quick knock-up but you'll need more if her ult is going to be effective.

Also I have 2 ways to make a big fix to the ult. 1 : More like a Nasus/Renekton ult with no channel, shorter initial AoE damage range, fear doesn't level (1 second at all levels) and constant AoE damage around her. Or 2 : (And this might be a little drastic so bare with
me) She becomes intangeble/stealthed (either or although stealth might be more balanced.) for let's say 5 seconds, has X00% movement speed, and when she moves she deals a fair amount of magic damage. She can also auto-attack one enemy unit to stun them for .5 seconds (Not long enough to completely lock them down just enough to throw them off) but can only do this to once to each enemy champion (You can't spam it on the same one) She can cancel this at any time, or when the 5 seconds are up to reappear silence all nearby enemies (Let's say 500 units diameter.) dealing extra damage to enemies she auto attacked while using the ability...Or is this a bit too much?


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Moby the White

Senior Member

12-17-2012

thanks for the support on that heres a friendly bump in return


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moby the White View Post
thanks for the support on that heres a friendly bump in return
No problem...There are things worth talking about.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-17-2012

The slow to SS might be nice while the ult's up, have it be large, like wither for the on enemy cast, or low like Command: Dissonance/Shard of True Ice on ally cast.

Ult Revision 1: I like it, a range of 200-300, a fear which calls to mind the powers of chaos but isn't OP, and threat generation through constant aoe dmg, which meshes well w/ her short range kit. Biggest issue: she's not inherently tanky, which means she could easily become the enemy team's highest priority target and die here. Maybe keep a version of the stat boost so that her max health increases for a short duration. Biggest Attribute (imo): introduces the possibility of a cool scary transformation graphic showing the power of the Void.

Ult Revision 2: Stealth for 5 seconds not as good for champ design/lore, but better for an assassin (jungler/top lane) type champ, on hit magic damage for a brief duration is an interesting idea, particularly if her q is an auto attack reset, might be hard to balance but I like the idea; I think she should either get the cc buff (slow) added to spectral swords, or an MS buff, not both (an AS buff might be more appropriate, but again balance is going to be difficult because it's a novel ability), the .5 second stun is reasonable, make it like naut passive so that it can maybe recur over the course of the ult on the same target, but so that there is adequate time between the proc so that the ability isn't OP. I would suggest either the on hit stun, or the aoe silence (attacking ends the stealth), not both.

Basically if you go option 1 she's AP nasus with really nice abilities so that she's actually useful for a team, and in roles other than top. If you go option 2 she's a bit more unique (a plus), doesn't fit her background as well (a minus), and will be hard to balance (meh), and fills some roles better (i.e. jungling) than she would w/ option 1.

Personally I would probably prefer option 1 because I like AP bruisers more than assassins. As a player I would also tend to choos option 1 because I don't glass cannons top lane or jungle, and I don't think option 2 ult would be good mid lane. As a designer I like option 2 because it's cool.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moby the White View Post
heh you thought she was successful XD HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL

the natural order of things is chaos, thus the natural chaos of things would thus be order.
One does not drop a handful of marbles only to have them align perfectly by color assortment.
One drops a handful of marbles to have them roll across the floor randomly.

it all depends on how you define what is order and what is chaos. Her purpose for clinging on to her identity is something that she can do so that she can find dante again.
Obviously you are not familiar with the concept of a false syllogism. There is no good, no evil, no truth and no lies, no order and no chaos. What is simply is.

This is a game however, and it's nice to pretend that good and evil can be clear cut, that there is a force for chaos which wants to see the world burn, and a force for order which strives to bring people together towards a common good. Towards that end it really helps to make the character EVIL. Why only burn dante when she can burn the world. I think that for someone channeling the forces of chaos and the void it is more appropriate for her to start off with a self centered hatred, and through that hatred to open the gates to the hatred of the void, accepting the powers and craze of the demons there before being reborn into the world a darker and more sinister force than before. Having a defined focus for your anger is a symptom of order, and the beings of the void despise and consume order.

Side Note: As the current version has her pursuing Dante, YES, she was in fact successful.


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
The slow to SS might be nice while the ult's up, have it be large, like wither for the on enemy cast, or low like Command: Dissonance/Shard of True Ice on ally cast.

Ult Revision 1: I like it, a range of 200-300, a fear which calls to mind the powers of chaos but isn't OP, and threat generation through constant aoe dmg, which meshes well w/ her short range kit. Biggest issue: she's not inherently tanky, which means she could easily become the enemy team's highest priority target and die here. Maybe keep a version of the stat boost so that her max health increases for a short duration. Biggest Attribute (imo): introduces the possibility of a cool scary transformation graphic showing the power of the Void.

Ult Revision 2: Stealth for 5 seconds not as good for champ design/lore, but better for an assassin (jungler/top lane) type champ, on hit magic damage for a brief duration is an interesting idea, particularly if her q is an auto attack reset, might be hard to balance but I like the idea; I think she should either get the cc buff (slow) added to spectral swords, or an MS buff, not both (an AS buff might be more appropriate, but again balance is going to be difficult because it's a novel ability), the .5 second stun is reasonable, make it like naut passive so that it can maybe recur over the course of the ult on the same target, but so that there is adequate time between the proc so that the ability isn't OP. I would suggest either the on hit stun, or the aoe silence (attacking ends the stealth), not both.

Basically if you go option 1 she's AP nasus with really nice abilities so that she's actually useful for a team, and in roles other than top. If you go option 2 she's a bit more unique (a plus), doesn't fit her background as well (a minus), and will be hard to balance (meh), and fills some roles better (i.e. jungling) than she would w/ option 1.

Personally I would probably prefer option 1 because I like AP bruisers more than assassins. As a player I would also tend to choos option 1 because I don't glass cannons top lane or jungle, and I don't think option 2 ult would be good mid lane. As a designer I like option 2 because it's cool.
Sounds good. I'll go with option 1 then. Thanks for the extra input you've been extremely helpful. ^^


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

12-21-2012

Added Base Stats