Leviathan, The Why thread

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Airship Engineer

Senior Member

12-10-2012

I loved the Leviathan it was the Item all my tanky Top lane builds Orbited around. Why did riot feel it necissary to remove the item? yes it Snowballed but they kept the Blade of the occult and Soulstealer in the game so it's clearly not the snowball potential. why?


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Vuther

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Because it was terrible even for snowballing.


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Airship Engineer

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Yeah but they don't remove things for being terrible (cloak and Dagger For example) plus Leviathan isn't terrible. an actual answer please


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Vuther

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airship Engineer View Post
Yeah but they don't remove things for being terrible (cloak and Dagger For example) plus Leviathan isn't terrible. an actual answer please
Uh, they did. Cloak and Dagger is gone because it was bad and didn't really fit anyone.

Leviathan was terrible because upgrading gave you absolutely ****ing nothing until you obtained stacks, pissing away 800 gold. It was terrible because it required 10 stacks to be worth taking compared to other sources of health, which would mean obtaining 5 kills/10 assists without dying, which is a game that's basically over already. It was terrible because using it on champions that actually expect to take damage can't really hope to hold onto the stacks in teamfights because everyone is liable to die with 5 people trying to kill them.

Leviathan was terrible.


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Nutarama

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Ok, in terms of stacking items it wasn't actually worth money until you hit 10 stacks. Magi's and Occult broke even at 6 stacks. By break even i mean you get what you paid for. In terms of Health items, even at max stacks it gave less health than a Warmog's Armor. In terms of passives, it's 15% reduction passive at max stacks was ridiculously strong.

I imagine the conversation went something like this:

Quote:
Morello: Hey guys, looking at the items from last season, Leviathan wasn't gotten often. Ideas?
Xypherous: Well, it kinda sucks in terms of return on investment, plus there are better HP items.
M: So why not just buff it?
X: That max stacks passive, man, it's crazy. Let me show you.
(A few custom games are played.)
M: Yeah, that passive is pretty crazy.
X: We balanced the costs around that, or at least we tried to. Make the stacks too good, there's too much reward for the risk. Make the stacks too little, and nobody tries to get to that passive.
M: So we need to rework both the stacks and the max-stacks passive...
X: Yeah, and we've already got a bunch of new defensive items with cool passives coming out.
M: So what do we do about Leviathan?
X: Personally, we should just delete it.
M: Huh?
X: If it's this hard to balance and it doesn't have a real niche to fit, why should we try to keep it?
M: Sound reasoning. I'll go tell the other guys.


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Airship Engineer

Senior Member

12-10-2012

XypherousOn Apply nerf Directly to the Heart


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Vuther

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airship Engineer View Post
XypherousOn Apply delete Directly to the Heart
Fixt


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Nutarama

Senior Member

12-10-2012

Plus it's kinda weird to have an item be risky if you die which makes it harder for you to die. Max stacks Magi's or Occult "Oh god, i hope i don't die ... @$%&" with Leviathan at max stacks "I hope I don't die and lose stacks. Oh wait lolz I can't be killed." Exaggeration of course, but going full tank with one at max stacks made you damn near unkillable.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-10-2012

The difference between Levi & Mej or Soto is that all 3 items encourage passive play, but the one getting Levi is either Vlad or a tank. In the latter case it's hard to keep the stacks; in the former case it's borderline OP.

I think all of those items would be better if the max stacks didn't wait 'til MAX stacks to fully implement. For example, Mej could grant +0.5% CDR per stack; 20 stacks gives 10% CDR, but you don't lose it all if you die once; Soto could grant 0.5% MS for 10% total (or maybe an AS buff instead would be preferred since nobody gets Soto anymore - BT being so much better and all).

In that line Levi could grant 0.5% damage reduction per stack, for 10% total; sure it's harder to get and keep stacks, but probably easier to balance around. Alternatively they could've given it a 1 bonus AR & MR per stack, for 20 AR & MR total.

Then again, people get these items for pubstomping, and pretty much only for that, so maybe Riot wants to leave them in for these niche situations. However, DFG >> Mej, and BT >> than Soto, filling essentially the same spots, so maybe these two items are also slated for expiration. With the new DFG, I can't imagine ever getting Mej again; I can't think of a single burst caster or AP carry that won't want it over Mej.