Changes need to be made, Tribunal is failed system and here is why.

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Amazinggggggg

Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exploding Barrel View Post
Are you saying you think the Tribunal has a 98% punish rate? It's actually in the 60-70% range these days.

Maybe that's not what you meant to imply? But if not, I have no idea what you mean there.



Those are two very long, confusing sentences. Have you been punished for these situations? Or are you just proposing hypotheticals?
Yeah I did ramble that off.

First Scenario:

Party of three blew lane for me and trolled me in chat.
So in chat it appears to the observer that it is my fault, 3 people blaming me and calling me wrong, and me only saying I'm correct.
In tribunal it would show 3 statements against me and then chat would show evidence against me.
But if you watched video you would see 3 people feeding my lane and then accusing me of radical things that did not take place.
In video you would see this but in none of this is visible.
Tribunal would never see anything but 3 people in chat and me calling them liars and 3 paragraphs saying how I was in the wrong,

Is it not fair that I should be able to write a paragraph saying what happened ?


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
The problem with this logic is that there's no excuse for verbal harassment or abuse.

It's somewhat easy to determine the difference between a bad scoreline and intentional feeding. And the fact of the matter is, while we regularly see people posting their reform cards to argue against their ban when they were clearly banned for verbal abuse, it's rare that we ever see someone posting their reform card arguing that they shouldn't've been banned for intentional feeding.

I don't see anyone who posts a reform card where the only punishment justification would be intentional feeding coming to the forums arguing some case where his 4 teammates caused the ridiculously bad score line. And do you know why? Because intentional feeding cases typically have players with boots 2/5 and five Zeals in their inventory and they can't argue against their intentional feeding ban.


But when it comes to verbal abuse? Verbal abuse is verbal abuse. There is no excuse for it. There is no justification for it. If you have to justify the things you typed into chat, then your ban is justified. Harassing other players is not okay, no matter what they do. If the other player is violating the summoner's code, report him. If you can't play the game without harassing other players, then you're going to be punished by the tribunal (and deservedly so).
quote-bump since this was the last post on page 1 and may be easily missed.


Anyway, I think it might be helpful for us to take a look at your reform card. You're claiming that a 1-paragraph defense of your reform card may have prevented your ban. I'd like to see your reform card, perhaps it might help me see more of what you're talking about, but if not, I can easily explain to you why your paragraph wouldn't make a difference.


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Amazinggggggg

Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
quote-bump since this was the last post on page 1 and may be easily missed.


Anyway, I think it might be helpful for us to take a look at your reform card. You're claiming that a 1-paragraph defense of your reform card may have prevented your ban. I'd like to see your reform card, perhaps it might help me see more of what you're talking about, but if not, I can easily explain to you why your paragraph wouldn't make a difference.
I am not banned


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Exploding Barrel

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazinggggggg View Post
Yeah I did ramble that off.

First Scenario:

Party of three blew lane for me and trolled me in chat.
So in chat it appears to the observer that it is my fault, 3 people blaming me and calling me wrong, and me only saying I'm correct.
In tribunal it would show 3 statements against me and then chat would show evidence against me.
But if you watched video you would see 3 people feeding my lane and then accusing me of radical things that did not take place.
In video you would see this but in none of this is visible.
Tribunal would never see anything but 3 people in chat and me calling them liars and 3 paragraphs saying how I was in the wrong,

Is it not fair that I should be able to write a paragraph saying what happened ?
Yeah, so those guys are jerks and I can see how that's a potential flaw in the system in theory.

But do keep in mind that if this is an isolated incident (as long as you're not requeueing with those guys, anyway), it won't even see the light of day in the Tribunal. You don't get a case unless you're reported consistently, in around 15-30% of your games played. The average player gets reported in around 1% of their games, so it's statistically almost impossible that you'll find yourself in these false report situations enough to go on "trial."

Then even if you did get a case made, the Tribunal selects 1-5 at random from the many games you were reported in, further reducing the chances that this one in particular would screw you.

So basically the odds of getting punished for this reason are next to zero, and it's hard to justify further development time to create a feature that might literally be relevant for zero people.


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Amazinggggggg

Member

12-06-2012

I have not been banned I have been previously banned though for verbal abuse which I have no defense for. I admit I verbally abused and since I have been banned I have not verbally abused, but there are cases where I argue still, I'm just saying that in all cases it would seem reasonable that if you were reported you can add your small defense paragraph that states what happened from your point of view.

I think the tribunal should see the two sides that's all.

Again I am not banned but certain situations occur where I feel there are reports that may be less credible than the defense case if it existed.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exploding Barrel View Post
But do keep in mind that if this is an isolated incident (and as long as you're not requeueing with those guys, anyway), it won't even see the light of day in the Tribunal. You don't get a case unless you're reported consistently, in around 15-30% of your games played. The average player gets reported in around 1% of their games, so it's statistically almost impossible that you'll find yourself in these false report situations enough to go on "trial."
Also, keep in mind that we all have report weights.

If these players are consistently behaving in this manner in their game and shipping off false reports repeatedly, they've got themselves a very low report weight. Their report weight could even be 0, in which case being reported by them is the same as not being reported at all.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazinggggggg View Post
I have not been banned I have been previously banned though for verbal abuse which I have no defense for. I admit I verbally abused and since I have been banned I have not verbally abused, but there are cases where I argue still, I'm just saying that in all cases it would seem reasonable that if you were reported you can add your small defense paragraph that states what happened from your point of view.

I think the tribunal should see the two sides that's all.

Again I am not banned but certain situations occur where I feel there are reports that may be less credible than the defense case if it existed.
The only case where the point of view of the reported player could potentially be at all meaningful are cases of intentional feeding, and as I explained, it's already pretty easy to distinguish between intentional and unintentional feeding simply by scoreline and item build.


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GON the Mage Guy

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazinggggggg View Post
Yeah I did ramble that off.

First Scenario:

Party of three blew lane for me and trolled me in chat.
So in chat it appears to the observer that it is my fault, 3 people blaming me and calling me wrong, and me only saying I'm correct.
In tribunal it would show 3 statements against me and then chat would show evidence against me.
But if you watched video you would see 3 people feeding my lane and then accusing me of radical things that did not take place.
In video you would see this but in none of this is visible.
Tribunal would never see anything but 3 people in chat and me calling them liars and 3 paragraphs saying how I was in the wrong,

Is it not fair that I should be able to write a paragraph saying what happened ?
I'd first like to point out the fact that you have to be reported a lot in order to even get in the Tribunal. The fact that you'd make it there either means you ran into a large portion of trolls for a few weeks (possible, but not propable), or you may have been a jerk a decent percentage of your games.

Let's go over what the Tribunal would show for you without your paragraph.

1. Your chat.

Did you respond negatively to the trolls? Did you feed them in any way? If the answer is no, then there's no reason to punish on that basis. It helps if you actively try to get the game back on track in a positive manner. If you're negative, throwing insults, yeah, you deserve a punish. It's not hard to simply do "mia" "gj" "Probably should buy MR, Galio" "We gotta group up and push" "let's baron" etc. etc. Don't argue if you're getting pissed off about it, simply mute and report afterwards. Next to nobody has been banned for not communicating.

2. Your score and build.

Are you 0/10/0 or do you at least have some assists? Did you buy all wards, all boots, or is your build at least somewhat coherent? I'm not talking about off-the-wall builds like AP Varus, I'm talking obvious troll items, 6 Hunter's Machetes, etc. If you show an actual attempt at playing the game, you're not going to get hit.

3. Your name.

Is it offensive? Nope.

4. Your level.

Did you leave? It would be obvious if you were level 6 while everyone else was level 18. Otherwise, nope. Nothing here.


Given that information, how is it conceivable that you would be somehow "tricked" into being the bad guy if you stopped arguing and played the game? Don't feed the trolls.


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Space Racist

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Forget overly complex scenarios or really long-winded discussions/justifications. The rules are stated in plain English (as well as German, Spanish, French, Polish, Greek, Romanian, Portuguese, Turkish, Korean, Chinese). Follow them, be civil to others, and you don't get banned.

AMAZINGLY - this is all that's required to avoid getting into trouble in League of Legends. I don't care about your excuses or reasoning as to why you think your behaviour was "justified". There is no reason to get in trouble in an online game. It's pointless. And it's so, so easy to not get banned in games.


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PessimiStick

Member

12-06-2012

The reason you don't need a defense is because chat is logged. It would be like showing up in court for a case where everything was recorded on video. Sure, you can try to justify your actions... I guess, but no one on the jury is going to give a ****, since it's all there on tape.


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