Summoner Roles

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Fortune

Junior Member

12-06-2012

In the solo queues, summoners should be able to pick the roles they want to play before they get to the champion selection screen. I imagine a UI similar to Wow's dungeon finder. One where summoners select all the roles they are willing to play before joining the queue. Matchmaking would automatically form complete teams with people that are willing to play all of the roles.

The way it works now is not fun. It causes a lot of anger and griefing. Trying to type "mid" or "top" faster than the other guy is not fun.

I can imagine scenerios where summoners are only interested in playing a certain role. Let's say they are working on their Udyr jungling skills and only have time to play one game. If someone calls jungle first they're screwed. They either dodge wasting everyone's time or give up on practicing and play some other champ. Or in the worst case get angry decide they will grief in game.

The current system if rife with opportunities for griefing. Human nature being what it is, many dodger's will of course wait the longest amount of time before leaving the game. Wasting the maximum amount of time for the other players.


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DeadEyeDeale

Junior Member

12-06-2012

I think this is a good idea, but am not sure how to make it work. I'd love to get a discussion going here about this. Let me kinda explore a few ideas I have about this. I'm mostly focusing on negative/issues that have to be overcome. The good points are easy - this is about problems that have to be addressed.

Yes this is long, its a complicated issue with many faccets. Also yes, I'm bad a proofreading.

About the Issue:

I suppose I could start with: a good team must be willing to adapt to fill out their roles. The current system pushes people to be able to play multiple roles and champions. However, you're right that people Queue Dodge. This slows down everyone's match making, gets people more frustrated each time is happens in a row, etc. And yeah, I think this is a problem that could be fixed or improved.

Why do people dodge? Just because someone wants to stick to a role doesn't mean they're inflexible. Sometimes you just want to play your favorite or new champion. Maybe you had a couple bad games as mid and are avoiding it for a while. Also, sometimes playing five games in a row and not getting to play your bread-and-butter favorite champion can be a drag. Maybe you just spent half an hour setting up runes and mastery for a champ and want to try them out.

So you get into a lobby, and right off the bat some one else grabs your role and won't budge - it really stinks. All you wanted to do was play this one champ you just spent time setting up. You could mess up the whole team and refuse to budge, but that's not a good way to deal with it. The only way to make sure you play who you want, is to Queue Dodge. Many people won't Dodge - they feel like jerks for doing it. But they might be having less fun being forced out of their comfort zone, maybe their losses are snowballing. Maybe they just got above 1200 ELO and only feel confident playing ADC in ranked.

Is letting people 'pick' who/what to play good or bad? When and Why? And can we handle that?

***So what are the potential issues/fixes/strengths/limits of a 'Role' based matching system?***

1. Defining roles.
2. Do we Enforce Roles? How?
3. Do Users Select Roles Or Both Roles And Champions?
4. If Champions Do Matter, Does a Match Making Program Have to Account for Available/Owned Champions?
5. Distinctions in Coop V AI, Normals, and Ranked Games.
6. Draft Pick VS Blind Pick
7. Issue with Letting People Stay 'Cloistered'
8. Issue with High Numbers of People Focusing certain roles, leaving other roles out in the queue.

1. Defining roles.

First, we have to define the Roles. Remember that
1 Top
2 Mid
3 Jungler
4 ADC
5 Support
is not always the case. Some teams don't have a Jungler and have a second Top, etc. Perhaps playing Ranked or just Draft Ranked could require this set of Roles? But then we're forcing this Meta. What if it changes? What if someone is having success outside of this setup?

There is also the issue of what fits a role. Some people don't think active Support Bottom (Tank/CC) is the way to go. Personally, I say they have to work it out in the lobby. The game isn't going to tailor a team to you, so there has to be an understanding that different roles can be filled different ways - all the game did was match 5 people into roles and drop them into a lobby.

2. Do we Enforce Roles? How?

Second, how will Roles be enforced/known to players once they get into the lobby?

People have always sorted this out themselves in the lobby. Who goes where? What to play? In this case, everyone has a label with the role they matched. We could assume the system is sophisticated enough to show the other roles a person would have liked, so that the team can switch around as needed in the lobby. I image switching would (visually) work much like switching champions in a Draft.

Do we make people stick to their roles? I'm not even getting into how we do it yet. Do we? Is the honor system and social pressure enough to make this system work well enough on its own? Or does it need built in enforcement.

Look at it like this - why would we have enforcing of Roles at all? Nothing stops a player from saying they'll be ADC and then picking Ryze (AP). Technically nothing in the game mechanically stops them, right? Only people can stop them - team mates rage and send Riot reports, the person might be discouraged verbally and also from losing lots of games when their team mates refuse to help them, etc. Only the desire for and effectiveness of teamwork, and/or the fear of getting reported for Trolling prevents jerks from being jerks.

So is that enough?

Consider enforcement by Champion Selection:

Say you picked 'Jungler' - do you have to play a Jungler Champ? IS the game going to enforce your selection by limiting it to what it considers Junglers? Who decides what Champions fit what roles? I'm sure there are a few people who just shouldn't be in certain roles, but can there even be a limit? I like Active Support Champs on bot who have CC and are tanky, and frequently bring Volibear, Nunu, Alistar, and Amumu for that role so I can feed players to the ADC. Some people wouldn't consider that Support bottom. So can people expect selection matching roles?

You could always say ADC, pick Ashe, and then go Jungle. No mechanics can stop that - that person can only be stopped by Players or Riot.

Without enforcement then people can try to pick whatever will get them a game quickly, and nothing has changed - except now the other teamates were expecting to have their roles! The honor system might be able to compensate for this issue, but I'm not sure.

3. Do Users Select Roles Or Both Roles And Champions?

Another issue with Roles is this - Are you picking a Role, or a Champion? Let's say you want to be Nunu. You might indicate you want 'Top - Nunu' to the system. You might indicate 'Any role - Nunu'. Does the game know what roles Nunu can fill? Again, who decided and are the limits fair? Maybe people have to enter the roles they think they can fill. 'Top, Jungle, Support - Nunu'.

Remember that some people might want to stick with a specific Champion, others just want to stay in a Role. It would be more fun for them to be able to do what they want. I'll look later on at how this might damage the community.

4. If Champions Do Matter, Does a Match Making Program Have to Account for Available/Owned Champions?

Does the Game Matching Program have to track what champions a person has, or can it safely assume the rotation champions alone provide enough to cover the decided roles?

Why do I mention this? If Person A picks 'Jungle - Nunu' and Person B has picked 'Jungle - any' but only has Nunu available to Jungle, the game has to be smart enough to not match both of them as Junglers - they're incompatible the same as 'Jungle - Nunu' and 'Any role - Nunu'.

This obviously adds to the complexity and also slows down the match finding/making system.

5. Distinctions in Coop V AI, Normals, and Ranked Games.

What distinctions are needed? Should Ranked Games support this method of Role picking? There is also the fact that the system might only be useful to Normal and/or Coop v AI match making.

In ranked games, I'd argue that flexibility is very important. If you have a full team you always play with and know, then this system doesn't matter to you anyway. I say premade teams provide the only time you should become more focused rather than staying flexible which is useful in Solo Queue. So should the System be used in Ranked?

6. Draft Pick VS Blind Pick

What about Draft games - if you can pick champions, this obviously creates the issue where your champ gets banned. It also introduces the bad habit of people sticking to their roles. In draft, you need to counter pick, you need to know a lot of champions so you can make a good first pick, etc. There's a lot of skill to diversity, and the Role system becomes less meaningful in Draft.

What if it was enforced and they had to stick to a role even if it was a bad idea? Maybe there would be no enforcement in Draft?

I can see many issues in Draft games with the Role system. I'm not sure how to tackle those at all, other than to not use it in Draft.

7. Issue with Letting People Stay 'Cloistered'

The Role selection introduces a possible negative. Sure, some people aren't interested in pushing to be a 'pro' and they'd just like to have fun with their favorite champ or two. And yeah, sometimes I really just want to play Nunu (if you couldn't tell).

However, people aren't pushed outside their comfort zone, where they have to learn to play other champs and other roles. This makes them a better player, and means they get a refresh on how other champs play, and how the roles work/evolve as the game changes. I might argue that such things often need to be done on purpose in Coop V AI matches, which I think is a perfect 'at least this mode' candidate for this system. Maybe most players try everything at least once before settling into a preferred? I dunno.

So do people need to be 'forced' to play other things? The game generally does this, in Solo Queue, ranked or not, you have at least 2 roles you can fill. Chances are you can play each role, even if you are garbage/think you are garbage at some of them. This is because at some point you had to. If not, congratulations on beating the odds.

If a person is good enough with their one role to be at 1800 ELO, why not let them play? If the risk of them not getting their champ/role is too high, they end up either losing a lot, and you won't see them at mid-upper ELO, OR they get way better and diversify.

People who want to be narrow should be allowed to be - its a game and its for fun and Riot could use more money to make it better for all of us

So, my answer is no - don't force people to play everything. Some people just don't/won't have fun in some roles. They just Dodge when they can't, and that slows us all down, and they also aren't having fun hopping around until they get something they enjoy. In Ranked, they will sink or swim. I think that will sort itself out.

8. Issue with High Numbers of People Focusing certain roles, leaving other roles out in the queue.

What is this issue? Well, let's say (this is just for example) that ADC is the single most popular role. Let's say 25% of all players want to be ADC. Then Top = 20%, Mid = 20%, Jungler = 20%, and Support = 15%.

We now have a HUUUGEEE problem. There will be TONS of ADC players sitting in Queue since there are no other team mates to match with them. This might have the positive effect of making people play roles which are in lower demand - but it defeats the purpose of the system: Let people play what they want to play - right - now.

Unless the player base happens to be diverse or well balanced, then I have no clue how to make this work.

An Example (the Original Poster mentions WoW)

Its a problem that used to be in WoW which was only 'fixed/improved' by altering the roles. In WoW, there was a lack of healers and Tanks (at one point, yes I'm dating myself). If you were a Healer or Tank role, you got into whatever you wanted - right now. If you were a Damage Dealer? You sat in Queue forever. The way Blizzard fixed the issue was by adding (well, making other classes capable of being) healers/tanks, allowing those roles to switch between DPS and healer/tank (so that people could be a healer/tank 'if they had to'), and making most of their classes be a little better at self sustaining to de-emphasize the Tank/Healer skill.

That's a whole lot of game changing! And some people still just don't want to fill certain roles. In WoW, you can go do something else if you can't get in and are stuck in a Queue. LoL is a MOBA (Multiplayer Online Battle Arena). If you don't get through the Queue, you don't play the game! (you could play alone with bots... against bots... I guess...)

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So those are some of the issues I see, and some of my opinions on this. What do the rest of you think?


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PrisonerOne

Junior Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadEyeDeale View Post
I think this is a good idea, but am not sure how to make it work. I'd love to get a discussion going here about this. Let me kinda explore a few ideas I have about this. I'm mostly focusing on negative/issues that have to be overcome. The good points are easy - this is about problems that have to be addressed.

.
.
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So those are some of the issues I see, and some of my opinions on this. What do the rest of you think?
This is probably the most well constructed and correct response I've seen to this issue. +1

I wish I could add to this, but I can't, so I'll just recommend you post this in reply to all "wow dungeon finder" posts.