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Give Avarice Blade's gold per monster kill passive to Machete

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OMG Turtle

Senior Member


I had a Skarner go like 2/1 to start a game and was level 8 while I was level 9 top lane (went back once).
I see no starvation on him.

Jungle is designed to be so. If you stay in it farming you should stay close to every lane (9 minions every minute + buffs + dragon + covering lanes) HOWEVER if you fail ganks you will fall behind, it should be so. Ganks should not be a non-risk like they still are.
If you fail a gank, you should be fairly far behind. Ganking is completely overabundant early game as it is, this is a good improvement.

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Blaine Tog

Senior Member


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Riot mention that they wanted to curb early jungle pressure (can't think of where I heard this, but I'm pretty sure it was Morello)?
They did, but they also said they wanted to make carry junglers viable.

I don't think most jungle players have a problem with early ganks being harder to pull off, or even generally not worth it. We were just excited at the prospect of getting the option of having lane-level farm, but that's not what's happened at all. This is a problem because it's really hard to carry if you don't reach a critical mass of items by the time teamfights start.

Let me give you an example: I'm a Riven player. I play her top lane and have a pretty good feel for how much gold I need to be relevant in a midgame teamfight.* A while ago, I decided I wanted to expand my repertoire of junglers, so I took Riven into the jungle. She actually does really well there: no mana, so she can start anywhere, good AoE and single-target damage, so both small camps and buff camps are easy to take down, and her shield + stun really help her survive her first clear. Then, she has a bunch of dashes and a stun to aid in ganks, and her shield even lets her towerdive unusually early.

All in all, her kits lends itself pretty well to jungling... except jungling Riven is a mistake. Unless you get off two or three successful ganks in a row AND GET THE KILLS YOURSELF, you won't be able to afford good-enough items to be a factor later on. Riven is substantially better off going top because of the steady stream of gold. The jungle is insanely volatile for her since it doesn't allow her to start snowballing reliably. She needs to kill her laning opponent to really go off when she's top too, but as long as she doesn't die and farms up she can at least have a few good items and try to get a kill or two in teamfights.

Now YMMV on Riven, but that general pattern holds over a lot of carry junglers. Diana is an awesome jungler, even in the S3 jungler, but you're still better off going mid for the increased farm gold. Evelynn's rework was balanced assuming she'd have the jungle's gold levels and have to spend some of that gold on surviving the jungle, but then we decided to take her mid and the increased gold levels broke her all to hell (+ old DFG, but she was still much stronger in lane after the DFG nerf than she ever was in the jungle).

The claim that we could use good junglers *to jungle* and you weren't shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't lane with them was awesome, but the actual numbers seem to go against it. If the gold values for clearing don't go up, I wouldn't be surprised if we see an exacerbation of what happened in S2, where junglers become more support-style roamers who largely leave the actual jungle to laners (who can afford to take a camp and then sit in lane to regen their health at a certain point). If killing jungle minions is harder but we don't get more gold, why wouldn't I just gank all the time? Maybe I'll clear camps on the way to gank if the lane is resetting and I already have my Wriggles, but maybe I'd be better off only ever taking Red before my first gank (since I can certainly afford to pot through one buff and still gank, whereas the 1-4 clear leaves almost everyone at around 50% health).

*Or had; the S3 changes may have altered this somewhat.