Goodbye Madred's, LONG LIVE the BRUISER!

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Vuther

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
Yes, thank you Riot for removing the item that gave us a bonus 1.5% of the bruiser/tank's health as magic damage (after factoring in their 200+ MR); after . . . 17 attacks I think I made him feel something.

Seriously though, they should've just converted it to true damage and it would've been fine, maybe brought the % down to 3 or 3.5, but otherwise left it alone. I wonder if they considered this and why they opted not to go that route if they did.
Probably because the concept would be too powerful. % health damage counters health, true damage counters resistances. There is precisely one example of this in the game, who uses up an ability slot in compensation as well as requiring focus firing three autoattacks on one target to use it and having a pretty awful early-game.


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ValorAndGlory

Senior Member

12-07-2012

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Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
*sigh*

Someone else who thought Bloodrazor was actually worth buying for countering fighters.

(It wasn't)
Bloodrazor was my go to against strong adcs that weren't stacking magic resist, but other then that I would mainly use it for faster jungle clear on high attack speed junglers.

So yeah it could be used against fighters in the right situation, but as you say it isn't necessarily worth it.


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elerico

Junior Member

12-08-2012

Blade of ruined kings, guys. It's pretty simple, and now it stacks with your ArPen and reduction. Don't forget that casters still have Deathfire. If you were playing Kass, why didn't you get that?


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naitsrich View Post
Madred's Bloodrazer was removed because it basically was an anti-tank item that also gave armor and attack speed. It was an item that kinda discouraged the tank role. Bruisers themselves are pretty weak against the new amounts of penetration players can have to use against them.

To let you know, it looks pretty straight foward of why you lost. The enemy team had high amounts of AD going on there, and Alistar and Teemo were there to give CC. So, team fights when you have gold disadvantage is not a good idea.

Also, are you complaining about Bloodrazers while using a Kassadin game as an example? To me, it seems you didn't play a lot of games and QQed about bruisers.
No, it was discouraged because it was a n00b trap, real tanks/bruisers build MR too, so it was totally useless outside of the jungle.


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
Probably because the concept would be too powerful. % health damage counters health, true damage counters resistances. There is precisely one example of this in the game, who uses up an ability slot in compensation as well as requiring focus firing three autoattacks on one target to use it and having a pretty awful early-game.
Hi Vayne! We still love ya baby!


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I AM LEGEND15

Recruiter

02-01-2013

yep, maldreds bloodrazor was my go to item for WW even if their teem wasn't tanky, i liked the combination of physical and magical damage so you cant be countered by a thornmail.


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itsbigfoot

Senior Member

02-03-2013

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Originally Posted by MonkeeD View Post
If any long term players are reading this you'll remember in the late season 1 and early season 2 pre-season the Bruiser class was HUGELY over powered and causing havok with the meta.

Players soon realised that Madred's Bloodrazor was a really viable pick especially against teams that were packing 2 or 3 of the big *******s.

But lets use a real life example, today I played a game against Lee Sin, Darius and Pantheon on a single team, their other teammates were teemo and Alistair. So we had 3 bruisers and 1 tank/support. All of whom saw fit to stack health with Warmogs Armor or frozen mallet. we of course we powerless to stop them. As kassadin i built the New Liandry's tomrent but only having 4 spells and being basically a single target champ, (i know he has a lot of AoE but you focus one guy) I wasn't able to apply any sort of signifcant damage beyond a single target, as it were i could burst any one of these guys for about half their health, seeing as they all had around 3k HP, thats not bad, 1500 dmg is quite good for half build. But herein lies the problem. I was the only person who could build and anti tank item because i was the only pure caster on the team.

TLDR; removing Madred's Bloodrazor has brought the old problem back of bruisers being impossible to remove in team fights, darius can now get 2 warmogs and simply wait in a fight until it's time to ult because he sure as hell won't be dying any time soon.

Good Job Riot!
madreds was a newb trap item that didn't actually do well vs health stacking because it was magic damage, and most health stackers have an mr steroid. 4% is not actually very much damage even before mr, and after applying mr it dropped to nothing against tanks.

Using your example, against 3k health targets with ~45 mr (midgame for mr per level champs like darius/lee/panth) madreds would deal 84 damage per proc. for 800 gold less you could build a blood thirster, hit harder and have 20% (now down to 18%) lifesteal. BT also synergizes with other items like PD, IE, and LW, whereas bloodrazor doesn't really. cost for cost, you could build bloodrazor and deal 84 magic damage and 120 physical damage per auto (~200) or you use the exact same amount of money to build IE, hit for 200 per auto and crit for 500.

Also nobody bought madreds past 1400 elo in season 2, and towards the second half of season 1 it was known to be an awful item.

tl;dr infinity edge counters health stacking better for the same money, and scales with other items


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Cards and Dice

Senior Member

02-03-2013

I think the way to fix this is that BotRK should do % max HP. It's already on the right track, it does a physical damage bonus and it's cheaper than Bloodrazor, AND it has an amazing active, but its damage based on current HP makes me hesitant to buy it on anyone but Jax.

Tl;dr, buff the % HP damage from current to maximum. Then, we could test whether it's op or not.


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Foxbyte

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Bloodrazor wasn't worth half the gold it cost to build. I don't understand why anyone would miss it.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cards and Dice View Post
I think the way to fix this is that BotRK should do % max HP. It's already on the right track, it does a physical damage bonus and it's cheaper than Bloodrazor, AND it has an amazing active, but its damage based on current HP makes me hesitant to buy it on anyone but Jax.
Compare these:
Quote:
Blade of the Ruined KingCost: 2900 (975 + Bilgewater Cutlass)
+40 Attack Damage
+10% Life Steal
UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks deal 4% of the target's current Health in bonus physical damage (max 120 vs. minions) and heals for half that amount on hit.
UNIQUE Active: Deals 150 (+50% of Attack Damage) physical damage to target champion, heals for the same amount, and steals 30% of the target's Movement Speed for 2 seconds (60 second cooldown).

Kitae's Bloodrazor Cost: 2525 (700 + Recurve Bow + Pickaxe)
+30 Attack Damage
+40% Attack Speed
UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks deal bonus magic damage equal to 2.5% of the target's maximum Health on hit.
The two biggest differences that I see are the current/maximum and the attack speed.
The sustain on the BoRK is not good enough to make up for the faster attack speed of the Kitae's

I would suggest that the Kitae's be added to summoner's rift.