Nami's Lore - Relationship with Diana

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Aavak

Senior Member

12-07-2012

The Lunari were an ancient race - as in they had been around for thousands of years.The fact that ancient relics and the temple were found did not imply that they were 100 years old but that they were ancient. The ancient race could in fact have been wiped out by a more powerful Solari race over 100 years.

Also, if a Riot lore writer were to pursue this link between lores, they could easily change 100 to 1000 in nami's lore.


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KuzAnn

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aavak View Post
The Lunari were an ancient race - as in they had been around for thousands of years.The fact that ancient relics and the temple were found did not imply that they were 100 years old but that they were ancient. The ancient race could in fact have been wiped out by a more powerful Solari race over 100 years.

Also, if a Riot lore writer were to pursue this link between lores, they could easily change 100 to 1000 in nami's lore.
If they changed it to 1000 instead of 100 then it would be completely acceptable and I would have no issue with the theory then. But until it's changed I'll have a hard time accepting the theory.

Even if the sealing of the temple wasn't done over 100 years ago that still doesn't explain how the Solari wiped out that entire history so easily and cleanly. You suggested yourself that they are an ancient race, therefore if they existed up until 100 years ago and the Solari and Lunari once worked in concert... Wouldn't it be really hard to cleanly erase all that cooperation away? And again, Leona's lore says there was only one other Sun avatar and we know from Diana's lore that there had been at least one that came after.

There's also the issue of people who were alive during the Lunari's time who remember them. Let's say so and so had a grandfather who was alive around 100 years ago. (This is assuming that humans on Runeterra have comparable lifespans to people on Earth. I wouldn't be surprised if they reached around 100 years in age easy because of the magic that infuses pretty much everything and the fact that they can heal in a way that even our technology cannot.) They witnessed the extinction of the Lunari but kept quiet about their beliefs so they wouldn't be squashed too. In secret they told their children of the Lunari and what they could remember of their history. Those children passed on the stories to their children as well. At this point there is still hope that the religion might be revived somehow, there's still a point to telling the stories. But as the generations pass and those who lived in the time of the Lunari die, there is less and less point to telling these stories. The Solari run things fine and dissent will just get you persecuted, why not allow this to be the status quo? The details of the stories become blurred or changed from lack of care, and eventually the stories vanish altogether. The point is, the people should still have that "story memory" of the Lunari if they were wiped out under 100 years ago.

It's just too soon for the Lunari to be forgotten if they were wiped out 100 years ago.

EDIT: Forgot that distance is a huge issue too now that I think about it again. Mount Targon is around the middle of the Valoran continent. Kind of hard to get to the ocean when you're hundreds of miles inland.


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Here is a question that is bothering me severely: Why do we need Nami's lore to add any more depth to Leona and Diana?

Let's analyze what we have.

-Ancient religions with the idea of oppression, complete genocide of one half of their religion.

-Why did it happen in the first place. Why did it happen? I'll come to some theories of it in a bit.

-Leona's lore states it was only one man who had been the avatar before her, yet his armor somehow magically fitted her, and when looking at Diana's teaser you see the mural depicting two very female and similar looking ancestors to Leona and Diana.

-Leona and Diana are already in conflict. All of the Solari with one Lunari avatar, possibly all of the Rakkor and the lone Lunari avatar. What will adding Nami do to benefit this? The responsibilities of the Lunari? Will get to this soon.

-Using Greek mythology and terminology because Leona and Diana are strongly influenced by it (And if anyone points out that Diana is Roman I am aware, Artemis is the Greek version, move on, it's the Rakkor for crying out loud, they've got a guy named Pantheon and the Romans were strongly influenced by the Greeks as well)

The conflict between Leona and Diana. What is there?

-Personal level: Leona and Diana. Beliefs, personalities, responsibilities

But wait, responsibilities, this is where you can say this is where Nami can fill in! No. Diana's responsibilities rely on bringing the Lunari back to light, to show those who stepped on them the truth, and to show that the injustice that had been perpetrated on them. That right there? That is a lot to deal with. She has a whole lot on her plate. Is she willing to kill Leona? On the fields? Perhaps. Off the fields? Would she? Would that weigh on her conscience? Is she so far gone? Can she be brought back?

Leona's responsibilities involve what, killing Diana? Is that her responsibility? No, I don't think so, then we repeat the exact same cycle of oppression as before. Leona doesn't like killing, that's why she was almost executed at the Rite of Kor, for her kind heart, for not wanting to kill her friend. Stylus said before, what greater tragedy is there than having to kill someone you love? And no hurr durr moments here, I am speaking of Agape love since she demonstrated that for a character that honestly could be used as a pretty decent plot device. Leona has that capability in her to love someone to such a degree. What then would Leona's responsibility be? To break the cycle of what the Solari had done to the Lunari, but not by endangering her own people, and trying to make sure Diana doesn't get stabbed and then figuring out what to do from there to try and make balance again. Would she make the choice to kill Diana? Yes or no? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not! That's the juicy conflict!

-Solari vs Lunari: Different ideologies? How so? They were two halves of the same religion. Considering the Rakkor are based on the Spartans and that they have a similar ruling government, a council. It was served by 28 elders, and 2 ruling kings. Can that be played upon with the idea of the Solari avatar and the Lunari avatar? Possibly. So why would the Solari want to wipe out the Lunari?

The point I am coming to is that the Spartans were xenophobic, meaning they did not want anyone coming close to them. The Rakkor killed both Demacian patrols and Noxian patrols stupid enough to come to their mountain on a continual basis until the League of Legends was established (Pantheon's lore). We get the feeling of xenophobia from them, so how does this play into anything?

What if the Lunari were more accepting of others? That sounds silly, but what if the Solari were the xenophobes, the one who did not want anyone coming into their fold except those who are Rakkor, Solari or Lunari recognized, and the Lunari were more about accepting anyone and everyone? A mothering, caring figure to contrast the burning idea of the Solari. The Solari have this negative connotation because we already know they wiped out the Lunari so it's not that farfetched. What if the Lunari were willing to accept more people into the fold, and were therefore able to grow in number, or were simply bringing in unwanted outsiders to try and help the fact that a population stagnates greatly without more open borders especially when confined to a mountain? Would that not be threatening to a religion?

The Moon can never overpower the Sun, the Moon does not overrule the Sun, the Moon does not command the Sun, so what could be done? And before anyone says anything about how silly that is, I am going to cite the persecution of the Christians by the Romans, the persecution of the Pagans by the Christians after they came into power and the persecution of the Cathars in the medieval ages. These are the ones I know best and off the top of my head, but there are many examples of persecution being abysmally stupid, ignorant and pigheaded. It's not a smart person's choice most of the time and there is always more to it than the simplicity I gave it just now.

-The Sun and the Moon.

The Sun was represented by Helios, the personification of the Sun itself. Apollo was another Sun god, and became associated with Helios more closely due to the popularity and that he gained since Helios was an older Titan god belonging to an older age but that is really derailing from my point.

The Sun was usually seen as a male, I cannot recall a culture where the sun was a female but some cultures that had the Sun as a male are: Greeks, Romans, Egyptians. Greeks being the main emphasis here.

The Moon was represented by Artemis, by Selene and by Hecate. Artemis was the unwed, pure Maiden and the huntress, Selene was married to Helios, which was the original definition, the idea of man and woman in unity and the idea of opposing factors and so forth, so what is Hecate? I don't mean the current idea of Hecate, the older idea of Hecate was meant to be associated with chaos, with the emotion of women, of witches in the bad connotation. However, Hecate was also seen as a protector of households and could be seen as a good goddess as well. Why mention this?

For those of you who can off the top of your head, recall MacBeth. The beginning has the three witches. They are the representatives of the moon: The Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone (Artemis/Diana, Selene, Hecate). Keep in mind of all the connotation behind it, both the positive and negative.

This is a Greek idea. They believed that the moon had three faces that it showed: the Crescent Moon was Artemis, the Full Moon was Selene, the Waning Moon was Hecate. Why say this now? Because these are what compromise of the moon that Diana so loves. Look at what she wears, look at what she wields, look at her personality. Will get into this afterwards. First, the broadest idea of conflict:

-The Sun killed the Moon. Balance crushed, disturbed, thrown out the window and hits the curb. Can that be a reason for why no more Solari or Lunari avatars were seen until Leona and Diana? Is that a sign from the Heavens that they need to do something? Should they continue the cycle of ignorance, of stupidity, of death and so forth, or are they meant for something more?

With all of that said, now let's look at Leona and Diana.

Has Leona recognized and realized her true position as the Avatar of the Solari? Yes? No? Why? Why not? Diana is not dead. If she was a "proper" Solari avatar, Diana would be dead and buried and not a problem to be concerned about. There's conflict right there. There is more to say about this, but let's go on to Diana since I did give Leo a bit more screen time a few paragraphs above.

Has Diana realized her true position as the Avatar of the Lunari? I say no. She's fulfilling only two of the three requirements. Look at her, she's cold. That's not what the idea of the moon is, the idea of the moon is meant to encompass all three faces and is meant to be in balance with itself before it does anything else. She's actually meant to be caring for others, as strange as it seems. She's the opposite of the Sun. The Sun burns, the Moon embraces. Leona has to have seen something that once flickered there or else Diana is just some cold ass person who never gave a d*mn and deserves to be killed, but we know she's supposed to be a tragic figure. Perhaps we could pull ideas from Greek tragedy in regards to this? Detracting from my point, onto the next.

Look at how she's designed. The woman, the armor, the weapon. The Maiden, the Mother that protects her child, and the Crone that cuts down those who dare harm her. Why would I call the scythe weapon the crone when it is labeled crescent blade? Because the point of the Maiden and the Crone was that the Crescent Moon and the Waning Moon are literal flip sides. You flip the Crescent moon one way, it's the Waning moon! Flip it the other? It's the Maiden! Artemis and Hecate were two women you do not want cross with you in the slightest. They were meant to be interchanged and interposed in such a way.

Someone who was naive once, and someone who is aged and experienced and knows much about life. The Maiden can be seen as the bloom of youth, the naivety, the foolishness, but in this case she is also associated with the Huntress because Diana is associated with the Moon. She is someone you know you do not want to cross, look at what happened to those that did. The Crone, can be seen as a wise old woman, or a spiteful old thing that is malicious and generally disagreeable, someone who has experienced life and knows what to expect. Young age, old age. Youth, wisdom. Is that how Diana views herself now?

(The three faces of the moon can and are also representations of the life cycle of a woman.)

Does Diana have much emotion? No? Isn't that a little odd, or even...off? Isn't that strange how she closes up in such a matter? She's quite vengeful, and with the way she dashes and reaches out to grab you, she has no care whatsoever for her own protection. She wants the Lunari to be brought back, but the way she speaks, the way she carries herself, maybe she's empty. Is that someone who realizes all three faces of the moon, all the ideas and all the responsibilities behind being the Lunari avatar, or is she still in the process of learning?

What about her jokes? Yeah I know, I shouldn't read into them much, except..."Knock knock. Who's there? The moon. It's far away! You were alone the whole time HA HA!"

Stupid joke or not, they do say that behind every joke there's a facet of truth (For example Vayne and Poppy's hilarious jokes). Is that how she actually feels, since she's the only Lunari? Does she want to have more? Does she need more?

Look at the armor of Diana, it's dull. If you ever looked at the moon, you'll notice that it's pretty bright and shiny because it's a reflection of the sun. Is that the true state of the armor? Is this Diana's realized potential?

The final question for Diana is this: Is this her duty as the Lunari Avatar, for her to try and act like the Solari did to the Lunari and pay them back by bringing down the sun, or is there more?

---------------------------------

That is what you have to play with, the themes, the motifs, the ideas, all of that up there. Nami's lore adds what to it, a possibly responsibility to the Solari and the Lunari that may or may not be needed? Sure, it can be associated, but when you have THAT much to play with, to toy with, the work with, and there is probably a lot of stuff that I did miss, is it really needed?

Look at Mount Targon. It's a bit lower than the dead center of Valoran. The entire southern half of it, is desert. The northern half has the League, has Demacia to its left, Noxus to its right, marshes everywhere, and in terms of walking it must be horrendous and take a long time and so forth. Mount Targon (Once known as Mount Gargantuan).

Would the Solari know of Nami's people? Would this be one of, or the catalyst for why the Lunari were wiped out? Okay, let's say they are, how old are the Lunari and the Solari? Are they from a time before written history even to make such a pact since Nami's people are supposed to have done this for so long it's unbelievable? How much more assumption can be brought out before we know we are completely off mark or not?

Let's consider this now: Nami's people would need this stone to be preeeetty quick all things considered, and they are fish people. How many people from Mount Targon have ever seen the seas or the ocean? They are essentially holed up on that mountain. Why would they ever go to either sea, ever? They don't have ships, they don't fish, they don't need to fish and they don't care to fish I think, and they don't have the territory to be able to expand. They have absolutely zero interest in expansion, or else they would have, no? Mount Targon is their ancestral home from what I understand and they have no way to access the sea and its bounties in a practical matter. As far as I know, Mount Targon is all they pretty much ever owned and all they ever care to own.

Making Nami's lore associated with Leona and Diana's lore really just adds more questions than anything, and it requires a lot of rewriting and a lot of rethinking and a lot of structuring that really would not add to their story in particular.

Leona and Diana have a lot going on for them with story ideas, motifs, symbolism, themes and so forth. Is Nami's lore really necessary to help give it a deeper feel? Why add more onto them when there are other people who could probably benefit from Nami a lot more? Maybe it's the long forgotten mystical gypsies from TF's lore that helped them all those millenniums ago and something happened to them, then you can go into some TF related stuff.

Maybe the civilization of Uristen were the ones who were doing this ritual, since they have a few small islands and coves near them, and Zilean is like, "Ooooh bugger." Maybe it's from the monkeys in the Plague Jungles that Wukong hails from.

Maybe it's near Ionia and the people who originally were supposed to bring the stone were murdered horribly in the Ionian/Noxian war and it can help show the ramifications of war and the need for a new carrier of the moonstone is pivotal to the survival of Nami's people and a new chosen one needs to be found and so forth.

There are other venues to explore that would give Nami's lore the amount of credence it deserves.

Leona and Diana have a lot going for them, a lot of potential, a lot of conflict and so forth. I'm not saying cast Nami's lore aside, but why not use it to help another part of Valoran's people? Why make it a moonstone and have it from the Lunari and have to invite excuse and plot hole after plot hole rather than looking around and go, "Oh! It can work here, and here, and here! Let's see where it would best fit in! This current story isn't working? We better look at it again!"

My final, final question is this: Where is this mystical cove supposed to be even? If we knew that, then theories and possibilities could be made a lot more clear, because if it's a stone's throw away from Mount Targon somehow, then a lot of the eyebrow raising questions are answered then and there (Although it may raise a few others, like how the Rakkor would react when they see a mermaid walking in through their mountain going, "Scuse me! Can you help me? I'm a fish out of water!")


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Aavak

Senior Member

12-07-2012

So IF IN THEORY they changed the Nami's lore from 100 to 1000 years it would be fine. TBH I was hoping Nami's lore would add to Fizz's lore.


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Aavak

Senior Member

12-07-2012

I do believe, however, that if Diana and Nami's lore were to coincide with one another that it could be used to add more the the tale. e.g. a champion who aims to reconcile the two Ancient races in order to allow Nami's people to survive, or one to teach Diana in the ways of the Lunari and their traditions (the moonstone).


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KuzAnn

Senior Member

12-07-2012

It would solve some of the logical problems I have with the theory being right, but I do agree with GV in that Diana and Leona all ready have a ton of stuff going for them as it is. Nami sort of gets shunted off to side character status if she's included with them when I do believe she's capable of a lot more. And now that I think about it again, the distance thing is a HUGE issue(my mistake for forgetting that bit). Mount Targon is almost smack in the middle of the continent, how did the pact even get started in the first place?


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aavak View Post
I do believe, however, that if Diana and Nami's lore were to coincide with one another that it could be used to add more the the tale. e.g. a champion who aims to reconcile the two Ancient races in order to allow Nami's people to survive, or one to teach Diana in the ways of the Lunari and their traditions (the moonstone).
Yet Leona and Diana's destinies are already set on such a path because they are the Sun and the Moon. It's not two strangers talking to one another, they know who one another is. Why would Diana need to know from Nami, when the murals in the temple would tell her? What if Diana discovers it because she realizes her role, and is able to realize her full potential? What if it's by speaking with Leona and talking with her, and piecing the history together with her rather than trying to kill her face?

Why go with what was, and go with what will be? Why focus on the old, and make something new? The Sun and the Moon both must set, but they both rise anew again. It's the idea of renewal, the idea of life and death, young and old, light and dark, it comes full circle. What once was, will be once more. Instead of the Lunari hatred and Solari hatred, it will go back to the old ways of their acceptance. So by starting a new cycle, they go back to the old cycle, and they restore balance.

What happens after this?

Why is it that the moonstone is needed to help Diana see what needs to be done? And it does not address the fact that they're on Mount Targon...That's the biggest hiccup.

There's no reason for any of them to ever go to the ocean.

I understand the association between water and the moon, the tides and so forth, it makes perfect sense in that regard but with how Mount Targon is located? It stops making sense. Where is the Temple of the Lunari? In a sequestered, ancient temple in a valley near Mount Targon that was hidden somehow, a sort of Shangri-La spiel, so it's not very practical.

In regards to Diana, it could be a duty she can eventually fulfill because the original people are plh'ed, but as it stands? Diana is not in that position geographically or mentally to do much. Nami's pleas to help her people would fall on deaf ears because what is Diana's main goal now? Why should she care about fish people? It's a duty of the old ones? How is she supposed to trust Nami? She was betrayed by those she grew up with, she lived with, she studied with. She was ridiculed, abused, and beaten down by her own people, and she's going to believe a magical talking fish person (No offense to Nami) because they said moonstone?

Does Diana get giddy every time she hears the word moon? Is her duty clouded? How is Nami supposed to help Diana in this regard? Diana has a list of problems that stretch from A to Z she needs to deal with. She needs to be able to trust someone else again. Diana is completely alone in this world, in her point of view. She has no one she can rely on except herself, no one to believe her except herself, and no one to trust except, you guessed it, herself.

Leona is the light, the sun, she is supposed to help clarify matters. The ideas and symbols behind the sun cannot be forgotten. Diana's lost her way, who else can show her the right path but the sun (especially since the moon is a reflection of the sun.)

Maybe Diana can take on another responsibility eventually, but why add more to her when you have a really good set story with those two as well as the Rakkor?

When we speak of Leona and Diana, we can't forget about Pantheon. He would play some role in all of this as welll, he is Rakkor. How would he view things? How would he view Leona? How would he view Diana? Hell you could even throw Molik in there if you want, the guy who Leona spared, how would he affect Leona? How would he see Diana? How would the other people of the Rakkor view the two women? How would the two women view them now? How would they view them later? You have an entire culture of people to deal with, and they need to deal with them.

Let them have their story, and let Nami help someone else. Give Nami her own set of importance, let Nami help develop someone else's story, or she is in her own world of pain because of plot holes and poor implementation.

Any coastal city can be used to help develop Nami's story and to help her help others develop. Heck, like you said, she could help develop Fizz's story in a snap because they're both fish people. Maybe they know one another, maybe they're the ones who had the harmony! Fizz's people disappeared pretty similar to Nami's people's prophetic end, right? Maybe a moonstone can help him, maybe they relied on Nami's people to help protect them or something. Fizz is a total throw away character and is a prankster and so forth, maybe he can be given some more importance via Nami and maybe Bilgewater itself can be given importance as the original location of said magic moonstone.

There are a lot of other venues that need a lot more refurnishing and rebuffing rather than Leona and Diana. They have a lot going for them already, Nami can be used to help further Diana later on because maybe their people worship the moon as well but not for the same reasons and she can show Diana healing magic or some other calm art. But as it stands?

Compare Leona and Diana, what I said about them, and their possibilities, with other characters. How much do you have going for them, in comparison to someone like Gangplank? To Fizz? To Zyra?

There are other characters and other places that would benefit from Nami a whole lot more than Leona and Diana.


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SoresuMakashi

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koelio View Post
I hope it falls to both Leona and Diana to help Nami. The exchange takes place on the solstice after all. Perfect balance of sun and moon.
Actually, the equinox is balanced. The solstice is furthest from.

That said, it would be cool to have Leona come into play somehow. (Loyalty to Solari vs. helping Nami's people?)


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Alfirinestel

Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KuzAnn View Post
If they changed it to 1000 instead of 100 then it would be completely acceptable and I would have no issue with the theory then. But until it's changed I'll have a hard time accepting the theory.

Even if the sealing of the temple wasn't done over 100 years ago that still doesn't explain how the Solari wiped out that entire history so easily and cleanly. You suggested yourself that they are an ancient race, therefore if they existed up until 100 years ago and the Solari and Lunari once worked in concert... Wouldn't it be really hard to cleanly erase all that cooperation away? And again, Leona's lore says there was only one other Sun avatar and we know from Diana's lore that there had been at least one that came after.

There's also the issue of people who were alive during the Lunari's time who remember them. Let's say so and so had a grandfather who was alive around 100 years ago. (This is assuming that humans on Runeterra have comparable lifespans to people on Earth. I wouldn't be surprised if they reached around 100 years in age easy because of the magic that infuses pretty much everything and the fact that they can heal in a way that even our technology cannot.) They witnessed the extinction of the Lunari but kept quiet about their beliefs so they wouldn't be squashed too. In secret they told their children of the Lunari and what they could remember of their history. Those children passed on the stories to their children as well. At this point there is still hope that the religion might be revived somehow, there's still a point to telling the stories. But as the generations pass and those who lived in the time of the Lunari die, there is less and less point to telling these stories. The Solari run things fine and dissent will just get you persecuted, why not allow this to be the status quo? The details of the stories become blurred or changed from lack of care, and eventually the stories vanish altogether. The point is, the people should still have that "story memory" of the Lunari if they were wiped out under 100 years ago.

It's just too soon for the Lunari to be forgotten if they were wiped out 100 years ago.

EDIT: Forgot that distance is a huge issue too now that I think about it again. Mount Targon is around the middle of the Valoran continent. Kind of hard to get to the ocean when you're hundreds of miles inland.
I'd like to debunk some of the limited thinking to the possibilities of Nami's Lore that adds depth to the tribes of Moon and Sun. I believe that Nami's lore can ONLY add to Diana and Leona's stories. Mind you, Nami is IronStylus' creation, and as her creator it only makes sense the she should affect the stories of other characters he has created. It is hard to incorporate one character's stories into another "creator's" character's story without even more complexities, loop-holes and "reworks". Now, I'd like to address this simpleton idea, that because Mount Taragon is in the middle of Valoran and is far away from the "sea" makes it impossible for Avatars of the Sun and Moon to travel. This is by far a ridiculous restriction and implication. I believe many religion would travel the world on a quest to draw closer to their "God" such as a pilgrimage for the Jews and Muslims into the Holy City for prayer. It is not far fetched to believe the Solari and Lunari, had to make a similar pilgrimage, whether out of piety to preserve relations between different people groups or these ceremonies performed mutually kept each group safe from X factors (which remains a mystery but a possibility for both). And a quest, keep in mind, is indeed a long journey towards a super-oriented goal that brought people together. If you look at Valoran's map, it is possible for you to travel easily to the sea following the Serpentine River on a boat into Kaladoun, which I'm sure, has lots of Coves.

Second, it is POSSIBLE to wipe out an entire TRIBE of LUNARI within 100 years, especially if it is a ethnocentric tribe like society that lives secluded in a mountain and isolated from other "nations" (like Rakkor). This is because the Rakkor are already a small % of Valoran and the religious sect of "people group" within their tribe are even smaller. The Lunari and Solari are not like modern day religions where the preservation of its teachings could be found in millions of "writings" that traveled to the edges of the world because of technology such as the printing press or an established writing rituals as the Jews had. You must compare it to the ancient "pagan" religion of tribes of our world such as found in the Vedic Sankrits where the "Aryans" took over and assimilated a people group and their religion. Not much is know about the other tribe and their religion then explained in the text. If the Lunari and Solari, co-existed and they had their documents in central area, were like the tribes in the Vedic Sankrits and were an isolated ethnocentric tribe like society like many of you have suggested; then, a genocide of Lunari tribe and their culture and history can take a single day. Lunari writings burned, men, women and children even killed. Babies that were too young to remember were taken in and assimilated (a possible case with Diana). And perhaps those wise and compassionate with a love for knowledge enough within the Solari even tried to save some of the Lunari text and hide it to where Diana discovered it. As you can seen not ALL traces of it has been wiped-out as assumed. It is also with much evidence that all the Solari priests and elders KNOW of the Lunari but continually denies it. So, you are right to assume within hundred, someone, somewhere MUST remember. The Solari priests/elders does and the hidden texts, temple, relic, armor Diana has found verifies that the Lunari has not been wiped out so "cleanly". Furthermore, in a genocide of a secret tribe, none of the surrounding lands would care of Rakkor or their religions or their internal religious affairs because they can't. They have no knowledge nor is there such a central government that rules the entire land including tribes (until League). What has only bought this "Solari" as a even smaller % of people group of the already small % of people group of all Valoran, the tribe of Rakkor, to light has been because Leona has joined the League and now the Lunari because of Diana.

Lastly, lets clarify the word ANCIENT. This idea of ANCIENT, is an adjective for describing something for the way it is perceived and NOT an actual "measurement" for TIME. One good example is Mount St. Helens of May 19, 1982. How long did it take for nature and natural weather to form the crater within that mountain? Some could say 1,000 of years, and it looks ANCIENT. But in reality, it took only a day. This was Mount St. Helens in 1980, right before it's catastrophic eruption. After its eruption, the summit collapsed to form the crater and the surrounding foliage apparently dead. With this I propose that it takes no time for a ruined and desecrated temple to look ANCIENT simply after two years in the aftermath of a catastrophic genocide and left isolated to atrophy and enter entropy.

A quest is a journey into another world and cultural to accomplish a goal, perhaps a super-oriented goal with others. Tides are the rise and fall of sea levels caused by the combined effects of the gravitational forces exerted by the Moon and the Sun and the rotation of the Earth. It is with this I finally propose that it not be hard to imagine, tribe of The Sun and tribe of The Moon had cooperated in this ceremonial quest once with the tribe of the Sea on a solstice (a rotation of the Earth and alignment with the moon and sun) to benefit all the tribes of the Earth. And that balance must once again be redeemed. So let your skepticism wonder and doubt but never restrict, and let your imagination soar with possibilities.


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfirinestel View Post
I'd like to debunk some of the limited thinking to the possibilities of Nami's Lore that adds depth to the tribes of Moon and Sun. I believe that Nami's lore can ONLY add to Diana and Leona's stories. Mind you, Nami is IronStylus' creation, and as her creator it only makes sense the she should affect the stories of other characters he has created. It is hard to incorporate one character's stories into another "creator's" character's story without even more complexities, loop-holes and "reworks". Now, I'd like to address this simpleton idea, that because Mount Taragon is in the middle of Valoran and is far away from the "sea" makes it impossible for Avatars of the Sun and Moon to travel. This is by far a ridiculous restriction and implication. I believe many religion would travel the world on a quest to draw closer to their "God" such as a pilgrimage for the Jews and Muslims into the Holy City for prayer. It is not far fetched to believe the Solari and Lunari, had to make a similar pilgrimage, whether out of piety to preserve relations between different people groups or these ceremonies performed mutually kept each group safe from X factors (which remains a mystery but a possibility for both). And a quest, keep in mind, is indeed a long journey towards a super-oriented goal that brought people together. If you look at Valoran's map, it is possible for you to travel easily to the sea following the Serpentine River on a boat into Kaladoun, which I'm sure, has lots of Coves.

Second, it is POSSIBLE to wipe out an entire TRIBE of LUNARI within 100 years, especially if it is a ethnocentric tribe like society that lives secluded in a mountain and isolated from other "nations" (like Rakkor). This is because the Rakkor are already a small % of Valoran and the religious sect of "people group" within their tribe are even smaller. The Lunari and Solari are not like modern day religions where the preservation of its teachings could be found in millions of "writings" that traveled to the edges of the world because of technology such as the printing press or an established writing rituals as the Jews had. You must compare it to the ancient "pagan" religion of tribes of our world such as found in the Vedic Sankrits where the "Aryans" took over and assimilated a people group and their religion. Not much is know about the other tribe and their religion then explained in the text. If the Lunari and Solari, co-existed and they had their documents in central area, were like the tribes in the Vedic Sankrits and were an isolated ethnocentric tribe like society like many of you have suggested; then, a genocide of Lunari tribe and their culture and history can take a single day. Lunari writings burned, men, women and children even killed. Babies that were too young to remember were taken in and assimilated (a possible case with Diana). And perhaps those wise and compassionate with a love for knowledge enough within the Solari even tried to save some of the Lunari text and hide it to where Diana discovered it. As you can seen not ALL traces of it has been wiped-out as assumed. It is also with much evidence that all the Solari priests and elders KNOW of the Lunari but continually denies it. So, you are right to assume within hundred, someone, somewhere MUST remember. The Solari priests/elders does and the hidden texts, temple, relic, armor Diana has found verifies that the Lunari has not been wiped out so "cleanly". Furthermore, in a genocide of a secret tribe, none of the surrounding lands would care of Rakkor or their religions or their internal religious affairs because they can't. They have no knowledge nor is there such a central government that rules the entire land including tribes (until League). What has only bought this "Solari" as a even smaller % of people group of the already small % of people group of all Valoran, the tribe of Rakkor, to light has been because Leona has joined the League and now the Lunari because of Diana.

Lastly, lets clarify the word ANCIENT. This idea of ANCIENT, is an adjective for describing something for the way it is perceived and NOT an actual "measurement" for TIME. One good example is Mount St. Helens of May 19, 1982. How long did it take for nature and natural weather to form the crater within that mountain? Some could say 1,000 of years, and it looks ANCIENT. But in reality, it took only a day. This was Mount St. Helens in 1980, right before it's catastrophic eruption. After its eruption, the summit collapsed to form the crater and the surrounding foliage apparently dead. With this I propose that it takes no time for a ruined and desecrated temple to look ANCIENT simply after two years in the aftermath of a catastrophic genocide and left isolated to atrophy and enter entropy.

A quest is a journey into another world and cultural to accomplish a goal, perhaps a super-oriented goal with others. Tides are the rise and fall of sea levels caused by the combined effects of the gravitational forces exerted by the Moon and the Sun and the rotation of the Earth. It is with this I finally propose that it not be hard to imagine, tribe of The Sun and tribe of The Moon had cooperated in this ceremonial quest once with the tribe of the Sea on a solstice (a rotation of the Earth and alignment with the moon and sun) to benefit all the tribes of the Earth. And that balance must once again be redeemed. So let your skepticism wonder and doubt but never restrict, and let your imagination soar with possibilities.
First, let me start by saying that these are a lot of valid points, such as the hundred years for genocide in a small community. There are a few things though I would like to say.

The idea of a pilgrimage. Pilgrimages can be and have been recorded and detailed by other people and other cultures. Especially with how close they'd have to go to Demacia if they took the most direct and shortest route through the marshes of Kaladoun? I'd imagine there would be other people who would be like, "Yeah this was a centennial ritual, always has been," if asked, unless it was done in the dead of night without anyone knowing ever.

And say there were patrols out that was decided to try and intervene because a pilgrimage was happening, maybe one time they're killed and they go "Oh wow why'd that happen?" Then you have another basket to deal with. Or hey, the Lunari and Solari explain that they're on a pilgrimage and they intend no harm and the patrol goes okay, go through, we'll keep record of this so we know. Is this a repeated ritual? Yes? Alright, keeping note of this for future generations.

Any villages that belong to Demacia in the marshes? Any villagers that could have possibly seen them?

Another thing is that the Rakkor would know of both the Solari and the Lunari, why would they not be? The Solari and Lunari people were once Rakkor, and their new members come from Rakkor who are more faith oriented rather than battle oriented I'd imagine. The population of the Rakkor, the Solari, and even the Lunari, are incredibly stagnant because they are on a mountain, and killing that many people would certainly be a problem.

Unless they took the route of the Christians did with the Cathars. When a Christian commander asked his superior officer how they can tell the difference between a Christian and a Cathar, the response was, "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

Would the Rakkor let that slide? There are only Rakkor on that mountain. The Solari and the Lunari are/were their religions, but in the end, they're all Rakkor. That is why I mentioned the Spartan government, two kings and the council of twenty eight elders. Solari avatar, Lunari avatar, twenty eight old fogeys and tadah you have the Rakkor government.

Next point: The problem with the temple. I was alluding to this before, but I should just straight out say it, what if the Solari avatar who killed the Lunari avatar sealed the armor away in the temple as a sort of realization of her error, by killing her other half? The murals show the Solari avatar killing the Lunari avatar, who looks hurt, betrayed by this fact. Would the Solari avatar let the armor of the Lunari slide away from her if she was so hellbent? What if it was the Solari avatar who hid away all those clues in her own sacred texts, who did all of this as a way for a future generation to make up for the fact that they committed an atrocity?

The Solari avatar killed the Lunari avatar. There is no feasible way for her weapon and her armor to not be taken by the Solari unless it's the head of the entire religion who takes it and does with it as she pleases.

The idea of ancient, as you said, is based on perception.

The thing about Mt. St. Helens, though, is that it's nature ancient, not human ancient. The laws of stratigraphy play a huge role here because it took millions of years to create the general base of the mountain. The fact that it took a day to reshape it does not detract from how old it is, it simply changed its appearance. If you go into the actual mountain's stratigraphic layers then you'll see how old it truly is.

In terms of writing, ancient is once more based on perception. When you read an ancient event, what do you think of, first thing? Do you think of World War II, the Boer War, or do you think of something like the Battle of Marathon? If you read about an ancient structure, is it the Eiffel Tower or is it chances to be Mayan ruins?

When describing people, you can use ancient to describe how old and wrinkly they are, or ancient as in they are an ancient corpse that is significantly old.

Ancient History does have a time frame, from the beginning of (written) recorded human history to the early middle ages, which can be start as early as the 30th century BCE but typically ends at the early middle ages because it is no longer considered to be ancient. It becomes classified as something else at that point because in our current time frame, it is not considered to be "old" enough yet.


When the word "ancient" is invoked, you do not think back one hundred or two hundred years, not the typical person I'd imagine. I'm sure most North Americans know about the typical ancient cultures: Romans, Greeks, Macedonians, Mayans, Assyrians, the Huns and so forth.

The word "ancient" is based on perception, but when you are told and given societal standards as to what ancient is, there are certain expectations when using it when regarding certain nouns such as buildings, compared to a laptop which becomes ancient in a month.

If the Sun and the Moon worked together in such an endeavor, why then would the Solari ever kill the Lunari? Are they so genocidal that they were willing to kill not only the Lunari but an entire culture of merpeople because the Lunari did something that they didn't like? Why not relay a messenger to them? Why take away that responsibility from Leona?

Having it become a tradition, a thousand years old, is a different story compared to 100 years because they're trying to sweep the dirt under the rug. Would the Rakkor people be alright with completely damning another culture of people?

And the final kicker is what do the Solari and the Lunari get out of this deal? What brought the Lunari and the Solari to the ocean in the first place? Nami's lore doesn't say what the bearer of the moonstone received for doing such a daunting task. Why would they leave their mountain in the first place to help Nami's people? What would bring them to the seas at all? Does the water call to the Solari and the Lunari? They're not a coastal city, so there goes many options as to what can be traded.

It's a ritual, but if you want to go into specifics, the ancients almost always did rituals and sacrifices in exchange for something. You kill a bird and look at its entrails, you can read the future, it's your job as a haruspex. You kill a bull for Zeus and you want protection or his blessing or something on those lines.

That is how ancient religions and societies worked because they needed things desperately. They couldn't do a sacrifice out of the goodness of their heart and expect nothing in return (Unless something amazing happened and they do a sacrifice as a way of saying thank you), and traditions tend to be kept so long as the civilization lives. Why did the Solari and the Lunari make a deal in the first place that took time and effort, and put them in danger, for these people? What brought them there in the first place?

And last, but not least, it's IronStylus' character. You're absolutely right, what he does with her, he will see fit. This is a discussion thread. I for one, said that Nami could help strengthen other forms of lore because Leona and Diana's lore already has so much going for it. I never said Nami's lore cannot be used for them, but I personally think it would be a shame since you have literally a huge world map to work with and all these cultures and people within them, and you can play with many, many themes.

What if it was related to Bilgewater? Can Bilgewater do with more development, and could use such a deal to their advantage since they are a coastal city-state that strongly survives on said waters?

There are always multiple routes that need to be looked at, and never settled on one thing. That is why this is a discussion thread, and so, I agree with your sentiment: Never restrict, and let your imagination soar with possibilities.