mardrads

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Peligrad

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Blade of the Ruined King

Liandry's Torment

Deathfire Grasp

3 better tank buster items than Madreds now available.

Plus all defensive stats went up in price...life is harder for a tank these days...


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SkittleMuncher

Member

12-06-2012

Well, again, no stats or numbers to prove ur point. but lets look at some numbers and do some basic addition, shall we.

First, u are quite correct that Mad was 1000 gold more than the current version. But the cost of the attack speeed alone, makes up the difference. So let us compare the current, Blade of the Ruined King (BRK for short) along with a curved bow (40% attack speed, about 1000 gold), so we can try to compare the two.

Attack damage and attack speed are a draw. Now the other effects come in. You have 10% lifesteal, with BRK which, is based upon attack damage.. so lets be generous and say there is no armor, and u do 40 damage from ur physical attack.. that amounts to gettting back 4 health per attack.. not a lot i would say.. since if there is any armor at all, taht is reduced by about 25%.. so 3 health back per attack. Along with that, u get 50% of the magic damage u do. so if there is base magic resist of 30, then 4% of 3000 health, is 120, minus 25%, is about 90, and 50% of 90 is 45 health on the first attack.
so on the first few attacks, u get back about 50 health per hit.. not bad.

But when the targets health drops to 1000, you are getting 4% of 1000, which is 40, minus 25%, which is 30 plus 3, so about 33 health. Ur total damage drops from 40 plus 120 to 40 plus 40.. a significant drop.

the old madreds, damage was steady at 40 plus 120 for a 3000 hp tank. it stays at 160.. with when their health is 1000, is double the new stat.

Plus, u have 25 armor, which means you are taking much less damage in the first place...so that more than makes up for any health you gain from the lifesteal and magic health regen.

with the other 2 items besides, Blade of the ruined king, u are correct that they are good tankbuster items, which are AP items.. which proves the exact point i was trying to make in my post. they are not appropriate for ADC...only good for AP.

Please, please please, show me some numbers which prove me wrong.. not just silly rhetoric and meaningless repetition of worn our phrases.. YES, the emperor has no clothes.. learn to open ur eyes please.


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67chrome

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Madred's Bloodrazors have never been good at countering a specific class of champions, they're only good at countering significant health-stacking. Problem there is tanks generally focus more on armor and magic resistance, so Last Whisper is almost always going to be better. Also, auto-attackers arn't held back by cooldowns for their damage, so if something doesn't die in 10 hits they can smack it 10 more times. Which makes countering tanks specifically almost obsolete if you can kill everything else around them with greater efficiency.


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SkittleMuncher

Member

12-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
Madred's Bloodrazors have never been good at countering a specific class of champions, they're only good at countering significant health-stacking. Problem there is tanks generally focus more on armor and magic resistance, so Last Whisper is almost always going to be better. Also, auto-attackers arn't held back by cooldowns for their damage, so if something doesn't die in 10 hits they can smack it 10 more times. Which makes countering tanks specifically almost obsolete if you can kill everything else around them with greater efficiency.
weelll, do you have an numbers or facts to support this? even some educated extrapolation of facts or some numbers you can point to at all?

Nothing, zero, zip, nada, gournish mit gournish (or GMG).

and nobody is disagreeing or saying my numbers are incorrect.. seems like everyone is in shock!!!


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Mit213

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblast123 View Post
I love it when people make wild assumptions or pontificate without presenting any facts to back them up.
I didn't believe I needed to explain this, it felt obvious that you would recognize the point that was being made. I will explain it in this post, just make sure you actually read it, especially after calling me ignorant but ignoring what I said without looking into it, or even considering it for a second, because that is very ignorant.

Explanation:
Every point of attack damage increases how strong your points of crit chance, crit damage, attack speed, armor penetration, and armor reduction are. The same can be said about the other stats for every single stat in that group I just mentioned. The PD/IE combination isn't alone supposed to beat the BC/Madred's combo, which it still wouldn't be blown out of the water by, but it would totally decimate that if a Last Whisper was brought into the equation, with any equal item being added to the BC/Madred's combo.

Quote:
In my prior post, i gave descrete numbers and examples why the MadBdrzr, Black cleaver combo was far superior to the Inf. Edge/PD combo.. which is the linchpin for any ADC in every posted guide that exists.
As I said, and apparently the pros and a majority of the community agrees, the multipliers cause more damage to be dealt than just flat numbers that hardly multiply off of each other (AS giving the Madred's on-hit more damage and the auto attacks more effectiveness in comparison to the AD giving the AS and crit and crit damage more effectiveness, and all of them affecting the AD and each other as well).
I realize this may be a bit confusing so I am editing it right below this saying as to how to damage would be calculated.

Attack Damage * Attack Speed * (Crit Chance * Crit Damage Percent / 100) = Flat Damage

Armor * (1 - Percent Armor Reduction) = Armor After Percent Reduction
Armor After Percent Reduction - Armor Reduction on Target = Armor After Reductions
Armor After Reductions * (1 - Percent Armor Penetration) = Armor after Percent Penetration
Armor after Percent Penetration - Armor Penetration = Armor of Target Existing
100 / (100 + (Armor of Target Existing)) = Percent of Damage Applied (.47=47%, or whatever it would come out to be)

Percent of Damage Applied * Flat Damage = Actual Damage Done

Quote:
Damage is damage.. whether magic or physical damage. Each can be nerfed.. no disagreement there. But a tank cannot nerf both, AND build Health, AND build attack damage all at the same time. In fact, LOL is designed around having to make choices. Giving ADC the capability to deliver both, at high levels, no less, gives tanks some terrible choices.
Damage being mitigated by resistances is the big thing. Penetration and reduction causes so much more damage than a lot of flat damage from different sources being thrown at someone. This point is furthered by the fact that this topic was started about a tank, who will stack probably 150ish armor, and 100+ish MR and then health for the most part, changing due to the situation.
You're not taking into consideration that this is a team game at all. The tank shouldn't worry about building MR for the ADC, he should build it for the AP carry on your team, you are just gimping yourself trying to hurt them 2% of their max hp (after resists) per attack.

Quote:
Furthermore, u only have space for 6 items. if a tank needs to fill an additional slot with magic resist or more armor, then. that is one less item they can fill with more health or attack damage.
That shouldn't matter at all, a tank won't really ever go for damage until their 6th slot at best, and that is only to be able to put pressure on a squishier carry if the situation calls for it, but even then it'll mostly be an aura (offensive or defensive) or disruption (the new slow item, frozen heart, randuin's, etc) item.

Quote:
Putting boots, 2 of the above items leaves u with 3 slots left.for an ADC.. please show us what u r talking about when u say "multipliers".. please be specific on which items ur referring to. Also, indicate why they would not work with the above two items. In fact, any item that works with IE/PD combo will work with BC/Mad.Bldrazer.
IMHO, there is no grreater multiplier than Attack speed, if there is enough of it.
Mercury Treads, IE, PD, LW, (any, possibly new BC or the Mercurial Scimitar, or a defensive item depending on the situation), and Blood Thirster. That is supposing you have a full build, which obviously doesn't happen every game.

Quote:
BTW, it would be most helpful if u could give me a current example of 2 items that dealt more damage, over all, then the combo of the old black cleaver/madred's bldrazer.. but u wont be able to.. i have been looking and it just does not exist for ADC.
ADC aren't supposed to be aiming for a mid game, but even then, Youmoo's is now a not-so-terrible item for ranged in addition to BC to probably ignoring 100% of the enemy's armor besides the tank, which even then it'll be almost all of it unless they rush pure armor before a mix of hp/armor/MR.

Quote:
I think u should educate urself on the actual numbers before calling other people uneducated.. it is very.. ignorant.. of someone to say that. For example the statement that Madreds didn't work because of magic resistance..is just plain wrong.. ur ignoring the 40 Attack damage and the 40% speed boost which went along with the additional armor it provided. Those work just fine in the face of magic resistance. In fact, the armor gives u an additional level of survivabiltiy.. oh... isn't that considered a multiplier. the abiliity to survive attacks?.. please please please.. educate this poor ignorant fool.. but with facts, not mumbo jumbo with nothing behind it.
One, I never called you uneducated, I said you weren't educated about how multipliers work, just like someone can tell me I'm not educated in rocket science. I know I'm not educated in that, nor a bunch of other stuff, I'm just saying there is that one thing you didn't know about all that well.
Armor isn't considered a multiplier except in terms of defense (which carries shouldn't ignore altogether regardless, but that is off-topic), which means no, it isn't a multiplier.
You were rather butt-hurt after that one little comment which you took in the incorrect way anyways, it usually helps conversation and debate when you don't go off on the other members partaking.


Last note, if you want me to supply the numbers, I'll get in a game and take the numbers on the tanks on any games I get a full game in of, and then compare how much damage would have been done to those tanks by each suggested build. If this was about the most damage you can get out of two items, then this is a completely different debate because there is no reason, in my eyes, to play an ADC and go for a 2 item build, especially focused around killing high resistance targets.


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