S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

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Kagami

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayleorfeed View Post
and then you proceed to make oracles last for 5 minutes making it not nearly as efficient where we must drop 250 gold for 5 minutes of gank time losing even more gold
Learn to communicate with your team on ward placement and timing rather than depending on oracles for your ganks?


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PatMcGroyne

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
So what you are saying is that all the reasons for the changes stated in the Patch Overview video are pretty much garbage and that the jungle is meant to be the same now as it was before?

Don't forget this guy just did a test where he did nothing but farm the jungle and he ended up with less gold than he did pre-patch. This is physical evidence that with a selfish jungler taking all the jungle you come out further behind so why would anything change? I just did my own 30 minute test on Nasus. I took all the camps and ended up with 242 minions killed at 30 minutes. Everytime dragon was up I destroyed it. I was able to do a full clear of the 3 fast camps (starting at wolves) kill dragon and walk back to wolves before they even spawned again. I ended the game at 30 minutes with Berserkers greaves, tri-force, wriggles and Ghostblade. Changing up my items wouldn't have helped much because like I said I spent a lot of time standing around. Obviously there is probably room for more efficiency and you might be able to squeeze out an extra 20 minions but that still leaves you very far behind the lanes and nobody is going to play heavy farming junglers if the gold isn't comparable to the lane. and this is completely unimpeded by anyone and essentially turning yourself into a walking ward in your own jungle for 30 minutes.


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Get Swoll Son

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
Basic arithmetic shows the lot of the jungler is now mildly worse to significantly worse, in terms of income, items, farm and xp. Playing wait and see won't change this.

Also, the fact that a multitude of different jungle starts have been swapped for just one (machete and pots), has seriously reduced variety and viability of different strats and builds. I'd also say that fewer junglers are now viable, since most find it really difficult to farm and gank simultaneously. Again, something you claimed to be helping junglers with, but did the absolute opposite of.

Honestly, despite a few strange decisions, I always thought very highly of the game design and balance teams at Riot. However, I think the new jungle and itemisation for it is a huge blunder. Not only does it make the jungler poorer, weaker, less able to carry and less adaptable, it makes it a lot less fun. It does all these things despite numerous Rioters claiming that they were trying to achieve the exact opposite with the changes.

Really guys, you need to go back to the drawing board ....


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyMakesMagic View Post
I am pissed that I have to carry the piece of **** around on Hecarim who is dying for item slots due to all the item route changes. I have to keep 1 open for wards and if I go triforce, it's like good luck finding room for defense while I put the stupid thing together. Basically I have 4 slots to work with, 3 if I go philo which seems like a necessity because of the lack of gold I'm making.
Wriggles is trash on Hecarim but I'm seriously considering trying it just to avoid the spirit stone.
lantern better on aa'ing champs


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PatMcGroyne

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagami View Post
Learn to communicate with your team on ward placement and timing rather than depending on oracles for your ganks?
Yeah when they ward your jungle entrances and know exactly where you are at all times it's really easy to evade their wards. Your options are either lane gank or play eve/shaco.


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatMcGroyne View Post
Yeah when they ward your jungle entrances and know exactly where you are at all times it's really easy to evade their wards. Your options are either lane gank or play eve/shaco.
shh let him play with 900 elo ward placement


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ShartDiaper

Senior Member

12-05-2012

I just think this is all hilarious. Junglers are forced to buy machete to have decent clears on a harder jungle. Ok, we get it. You want us to choose between having an item for decent clears or actually being able to gank a lane. The item costs enough that it'll take a REALLY long time of heavy farming to make up for the fact it doesn't have any applications vs players or even upgrade into something that has applications vs players, as opposed to boots+hpots ->gank. As pointed out, "poaching" makes the machete's final value nill, as you won't even be farmed enough to pay for it vs a ganking jungler by the time the game ends.

If Riot really wants to fix this, they'll offer an upgrade path or 2 with the machete that says "I cleared my jungle. I'm between level 6 and 11. It's not a level 2 gank, but it's not quite roaming team-fight midgame yet. It's time to gank." Maybe give it an upgrade path with boots that combine a tier 2 boot movespeed with machete stats built in, as a suggestion.

The point is, we can't be sticking solidly to the jungle between levels 6 and 11. This is the time I feel we really need to start ganking. The lanes are defined enough for a jungler not to call it in their team's favor, and not so late that we're missing midgame team fights and getting the jungle poached. Give junglers a consistent means to meet farm demands instead of throwing away gold. LoL is shaping up to be a game where jungling will become a financial burden for a team and duo tops will become more frequent otherwise. The last game played, in fact, I was Darius solo top against Nasus. I was beating Nasus until enemy jungle Cho with blue came to gank at lvl 2, then only left the lane to clear nearby camps and sat there, effectively, babysitting top. I was forced off farm, our jungle Fiora was too poor from slower clears via harder jungle to effectively come assist me on top, and we lost that match badly. Moral of the story: Duo top = more $>solo top + jungler.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xengre View Post
From looking at the patch notes it appears that the gold starvation for farming jungle vs ganking has not been resolved. Based on the numbers provided a full clear will actually yield slightly LESS gold then in S2. This is slightly offset by the global ambient gold generated, but honestly... not by much.

If I am not mistaken junglers will still be gold deprived unless they spend most of their time ganking since farming jungle simply won't let them keep pace... something Riot claimed to try and fix with these jungle changes. To further the concern Heart of Gold (a staple jungler item) has been removed... and is, honestly, the core reason for the ambient gold increase.

I would love to see people's opinions on the issue, especially Statik and Reds. Perhaps I am wrong? Come at me logic!
Lane gold went down a tick.
jungle gold is nearly the same.
=> Jungler didn't got nerfed as hard as the lanes.
The +3g/10 extra for every champs means that jungle got buffed a tiny bit and lane is nearly the same.
After 11 minutes, jungle starts to get more gold and XP (where they dropped off very hard).

The second effect is that jungling is harder. Machete and the other items make it possible for the jungler.
The main problem in the jungle was not the low amount of gold, but that the lanes took the jungler after a short amount of time. Mid laners started pre 6 with it. ADC + support often started at lvl 1. And some champs took the blue buff while the jungler took red the red side.
Riot wanted to give the jungle back to the junglers away from the lanes.

Now the mid lane gets less wraith camps. Top takes less golems/wolves and the ADC also takes less.
That automaticly leaved the jungle open for the jungler again.

The problem was that a farming jungler was ok, but giving the gold to the lanes while the jungler took 2 g/10 items and only supported was the better way to play.

In a normal game i get around 15-30% more gold if i farm my jungle. Before i didn't get a chance to farm after the first clear. perma ganking + g/10 was the way to go.
Now i can decide what to do. It opens new ways (or opens up old ways again).


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
Lane gold went down a tick.
jungle gold is nearly the same.
=> Jungler didn't got nerfed as hard as the lanes.
The +3g/10 extra for every champs means that jungle got buffed a tiny bit and lane is nearly the same.
After 11 minutes, jungle starts to get more gold and XP (where they dropped off very hard).

The second effect is that jungling is harder. Machete and the other items make it possible for the jungler.
The main problem in the jungle was not the low amount of gold, but that the lanes took the jungler after a short amount of time. Mid laners started pre 6 with it. ADC + support often started at lvl 1. And some champs took the blue buff while the jungler took red the red side.
Riot wanted to give the jungle back to the junglers away from the lanes.

Now the mid lane gets less wraith camps. Top takes less golems/wolves and the ADC also takes less.
That automaticly leaved the jungle open for the jungler again.

The problem was that a farming jungler was ok, but giving the gold to the lanes while the jungler took 2 g/10 items and only supported was the better way to play.

In a normal game i get around 15-30% more gold if i farm my jungle. Before i didn't get a chance to farm after the first clear. perma ganking + g/10 was the way to go.
Now i can decide what to do. It opens new ways (or opens up old ways again).
1. laners get more gold
2. junglers get less
3. 11 minutes is where the gold is the same with small differences
4. laners still take buffs/camps
5. you cant gank and farm, you pick one


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

one last bump and im off