S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

First Riot Post
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LightEcho

Senior Member

12-05-2012

The machete is a 300 gold sink that really hurts early gold a lot, and from what I'll reserve judgement on the gold values but if riot really wants people to be able to carry from the jungle junglers need more experience. Typically the reason junglers can't go for offensive builds is because they're down between 2-4 levels through out the game and thus down about 160-320ish health, 6-15 armor, and 3-6 mr. Granted the health and increased base damages is are the relal kickers though. Ideally a pure farming jungler or a very successful ganker should be able to keep even with solo levels but this pretty much never ends up happening.


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xBaron Nashorx

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
<Snip>
I'm sorry, but i've been playing shaco for 3 years.
If i can't ever gank while jungling, you've screwed up.
And i'm in that position. I cannot gank, ever. I have to start a run, finish it or lose gold, then B and heal up.

I've been a core balance consultant for 2 years and been the source of 6 major changes and numerous champion nerfs.

Here's me, saying "You screwed up, the jungle needs fixing".

Thank you.


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Lunaria

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
i know it's only been a day but my current opinion is the jungle minions are so incredibly worthless you mine as well just remove them or make them worth killing outside of being required


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Fishing Boat

Member

12-05-2012

I see all of these bad posts, and I have no idea where it's coming from. I love the new jungle, and all of the new items that come from it. Just played with Amumu, and my clear time was coolbeans, I didn't have to buy boots for forever, I could upgrade to spirit stone for all of the mana/health regen I needed, and since Spirit of the Golem gives me tenacity, I can buy speed boots! I honestly love the new jungle already.


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Kchaosrei

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Senior Member

12-05-2012

u farm your gold on teh enemy jungler. Roit said they didnt want junglers in lanes as much. So they are drving them to the there counter part to stop them. Except now you can afford to ward for your self anymore.

Tank jungle is dead. Constant invades by the enemy are the new jungle. I cant wait to see this happen in a tourment. So i can hear roit say they never saw it coming


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishing Boat View Post
I see all of these bad posts, and I have no idea where it's coming from. I love the new jungle, and all of the new items that come from it. Just played with Amumu, and my clear time was coolbeans, I didn't have to buy boots for forever, I could upgrade to spirit stone for all of the mana/health regen I needed, and since Spirit of the Golem gives me tenacity, I can buy speed boots! I honestly love the new jungle already.
then you are jungling wrong


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BoltAktion

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by xBaron Nashorx View Post
I'm sorry, but i've been playing shaco for 3 years.
If i can't ever gank while jungling, you've screwed up.
And i'm in that position. I cannot gank, ever. I have to start a run, finish it or lose gold, then B and heal up.

I've been a core balance consultant for 2 years and been the source of 6 major changes and numerous champion nerfs.

Here's me, saying "You screwed up, the jungle needs fixing".

Thank you.

You are doing it wrong then, Shaco is one of the few jungles that wasn't completely neutered.

Do people upgrade the machete? I always just keep it till later in the game and sell it.

The upgrades don't seem worth it to me.


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xBaron Nashorx

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kchaosrei View Post
u farm your gold on teh enemy jungler. Roit said they didnt want junglers in lanes as much. So they are drving them to the there counter part to stop them. Except now you can afford to ward for your self anymore.

Tank jungle is dead. Constant invades by the enemy are the new jungle. I cant wait to see this happen in a tourment. So i can hear roit say they never saw it coming
This is probably the bigger truth; Jungler vs jungler. Laner vs laner.
I actually had an enemy shaco come into my jungle and try to kill me lol. No other shaco has ever, ever beaten me which made it hilarious but still.... He tried!

Which means he also realised that on 1/4 hp and 2 levels behind the lanes, his only option was to gank ME!


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xBaron Nashorx

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoltAktion View Post
You are doing it wrong then, Shaco is one of the few jungles that wasn't completely neutered.

Do people upgrade the machete? I always just keep it till later in the game and sell it.

The upgrades don't seem worth it to me.
No i'm not doing it wrong and until you post a better clear time than me, you're lying.


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JoeyMakesMagic

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall008 View Post
I do feel that junglers need a tad more gold but something that honestly needs a buff is the spirit stone. I don't actually feel any stronger when I buy that thing. I think it needs a little something more.
I am pissed that I have to carry the piece of **** around on Hecarim who is dying for item slots due to all the item route changes. I have to keep 1 open for wards and if I go triforce, it's like good luck finding room for defense while I put the stupid thing together. Basically I have 4 slots to work with, 3 if I go philo which seems like a necessity because of the lack of gold I'm making.
Wriggles is trash on Hecarim but I'm seriously considering trying it just to avoid the spirit stone.