S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

First Riot Post
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Dunal

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Sorry Statikk, but the primary problem we are facing is that Riot keeps on enforcing the point that junglers have more gold and that more junglers are viable.

They've been outright nerfed. End of story. With the Machete, with the sustain nerfs, with the sustain necessity , with no early gold increase etc...

If you were to just come right out and say "Yes, we nerfed the early game jungle a lot" instead of claiming the opposite, the criticisms would be far less. However, Riot is giving a wrong impression with the new changes. That is the biggest issue.


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Roll View Post
those kind of ideas do not work because then your adc's buy them.
please learn to read


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
Should I go into a game and purposely try to farm jungle as much as I can without being completely passive and see how that works then? When I jungle it feels like I'm forced to be constantly leaving my jungle after around 11 minutes anyway because if I don't, my lanes will fall behind more than my extra farming will end up putting me ahead.


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FerSher

Junior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayleorfeed View Post
cant tell if serious or extremely stupid
Go ahead and tell me what you don't agree with. I'm open to debate man, but if you're just going to call me stupid, well there's not much I can work with.


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Free Roll

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.

This is a poorly thought out post the only reason junglers are expected to support the map is because you neutered thier power. It is the same non sense that created the retardo support meta. you are in control and you **** all over junglers in season one with the intended purpose and stated purpose to remove them from the carry role. No other reason none. I see no reason neither has one ever been provided as to why the junglers should NOT be a carry role.


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Habimaru

Senior Member

12-05-2012

***k the jungle. I would rather Duo-Top-Lane instead for this season.
Junglers are just SO yesterday's Season 2.


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Dunal

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finanzamt View Post
@Statikk:

I find it kind of odd, that Riot mentioned the new variety of items that "everyone" is able to get, yet you force jungler into one specific item, if they want to do well.

Some guy mentioned a very nice idea regarding the Machete:

(maybe some xp bonus too - I watched SaintVicious last night and he was xp starved as Shyvana ... one of the fastest junglers...)

With this passive the Machete would at least pay of after some time.
In addition you have to chose more carefully between ganking and farming your jungle.
And last but not least - only the jungler would benefit ... but he was forced to buy the Machete after all.

Greetings
Ah, I believe I suggested a change like that earlier. Yes, I think it would be a reasonable solution.

I just want laners to stop taking camps or feel the need to. If the jungler gets an outright advantage to take the camps then finally there's an excuse for us taking them.


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habimaru View Post
***k the jungle. I would rather Duo-Top-Lane instead for this season.
Junglers are just SO yesterday's Season 2.
with a kill lane toplane your team doesnt have someone falling way behind in experience

it also puts alot of pressure on the enemy toplane making it harder for him to cs and with a early jungle gank your toplaner is ****ed

if done right it can be more profitable than a jungle which is pretty bull****


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Twillera

Senior Member

12-05-2012

I jungled a few times in PBE, and found no reason to stay and farm, and found It actually harder not to in some cases. Any champ who has a weak clear is basically ****ed if they have to farm, and cause the jungle hurts more, they cant gank as well...The only reasons iv seen that junglers will gank less is when they are forced by low health to stay in the jungle. Doesnt seem like the best system. I would rather a system that rewards for jungle farm instead of punishing for ganking.


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Stonewall008

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
I do feel that junglers need a tad more gold but something that honestly needs a buff is the spirit stone. I don't actually feel any stronger when I buy that thing. I think it needs a little something more.