S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

12-05-2012
1 of 3 Riot Posts

I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.


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Firestorme

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Recruiter

12-05-2012

I saw that edit


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Uroboros

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
words
Glad to see that you're keeping an eye on it. I was a little scared to even try, with the giant "OOO JUNGLE BAD" that everyone's been going about.


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
the meta has nothing to do with the op's point

you want the junglers to not camp lanes for gold and experience yet you make the jungle worth less gold and a slower clear so less exp

and then you proceed to make it so there is only 1 viable option to start with as a jungler which is a machete forcing you to be even farther behind in gold

and then we have to buy a ton of pots because of the buffs making us lose more gold

and then you proceed to make oracles last for 5 minutes making it not nearly as efficient where we must drop 250 gold for 5 minutes of gank time losing even more gold

And last but not least you add alot of new damage items into the game and remove essential tanky items making junglers easier to kill

Overall the jungler has an extremely small impact on the game along with a lower gold generation

One or the other Statikk


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Finanzamt

Senior Member

12-05-2012

@Statikk:

I find it kind of odd, that Riot mentioned the new variety of items that "everyone" is able to get, yet you force jungler into one specific item, if they want to do well.

Some guy mentioned a very nice idea regarding the Machete:

Quote:
Unique Passive: When killing a neutral monster you gain X additional Gold.
(maybe some xp bonus too - I watched SaintVicious last night and he was xp starved as Shyvana ... one of the fastest junglers...)

With this passive the Machete would at least pay of after some time.
In addition you have to chose more carefully between ganking and farming your jungle.
And last but not least - only the jungler would benefit ... but he was forced to buy the Machete after all.

Greetings


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Free Roll

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitro View Post
would love to see the math

it is easy you just specate a game chang ethe setting to show total gold and compare junglers.


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FerSher

Junior Member

12-05-2012

You're starved for gold because you're not adapting to new jungle. Now the farmy junglers will dominate the role. People like Shyvana and Udyr are top of the list. I'm able to consistently reach 100 cs with shyv by minute 12 through means of counterjungling. I usually hit to about 3rd or 2nd most gold in my team. The point is to farm up super hard and have large control mid game. Cripple the enemy jungler by stealing buffs and leave him underleveled and underfed. Do your best to help mid and top snowball, but it isn't as possible with new viability in jungle. If you want to focus on snowballing your top/mid then you go back to cc champs like Maokai. The downside with this type of champ is that you clear dreadfully slow mid and late game and offer nonexistant damage late game. At this point it's just smarter to use jungle as another bruiser that can offer more utility in teamfights.


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Free Roll

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finanzamt View Post
@Statikk:

I find it kind of odd, that Riot mentioned the new variety of items that "everyone" is able to get, yet you force jungler into one specific item, if they want to do well.

Some guy mentioned a very nice idea regarding the Machete:

(maybe some xp bonus too - I watched SaintVicious last night and he was xp starved as Shyvana ... one of the fastest junglers...)

With this passive the Machete would at least pay of after some time.
In addition you have to chose more carefully between ganking and farming your jungle.
And last but not least - only the jungler would benefit ... but he was forced to buy the Machete after all.

Greetings

those kind of ideas do not work because then your adc's buy them.


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Free Roll

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerSher View Post
You're starved for gold because you're not adapting to new jungle. Now the farmy junglers will dominate the role. People like Shyvana and Udyr are top of the list. I'm able to consistently reach 100 cs with shyv by minute 12 through means of counterjungling. I usually hit to about 3rd or 2nd most gold in my team. The point is to farm up super hard and have large control mid game. Cripple the enemy jungler by stealing buffs and leave him underleveled and underfed. Do your best to help mid and top snowball, but it isn't as possible with new viability in jungle. If you want to focus on snowballing your top/mid then you go back to cc champs like Maokai. The downside with this type of champ is that you clear dreadfully slow mid and late game and offer nonexistant damage late game. At this point it's just smarter to use jungle as another bruiser that can offer more utility in teamfights.

they dont stop reading theorycrafters k? Nothing worse than people who have no idea what they are talking about that just regurgitate some **** a peon theorycrafted.


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerSher View Post
You're starved for gold because you're not adapting to new jungle. Now the farmy junglers will dominate the role. People like Shyvana and Udyr are top of the list. I'm able to consistently reach 100 cs with shyv by minute 12 through means of counterjungling. I usually hit to about 3rd or 2nd most gold in my team. The point is to farm up super hard and have large control mid game. Cripple the enemy jungler by stealing buffs and leave him underleveled and underfed. Do your best to help mid and top snowball, but it isn't as possible with new viability in jungle. If you want to focus on snowballing your top/mid then you go back to cc champs like Maokai. The downside with this type of champ is that you clear dreadfully slow mid and late game and offer nonexistant damage late game. At this point it's just smarter to use jungle as another bruiser that can offer more utility in teamfights.
cant tell if serious or extremely stupid