S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poofums View Post
I've watched all of his videos for Season 3 jungle... and pretty much discredited him because of him admitting he was using traditional runes/masteries and didn't switch it up much... along with him actually putting a point into Meditate with Master Yi when level 3, making me think he probably hardly knows what he's doing.
because with a new jungle you want to use ap reds, mr quints, as seals and masturbation blues

yeah right


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Syntax Er0r

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Senior Member

12-05-2012

Watched Saintvicious today.

GP Jungle with mandreds/avarice blade rush. He turned out just fine.

-Syntax


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyltin View Post
1. Laners get 9 less gold per wave if they last hit perfectly. They get +9 gold from teh increased g/10. So they stay equal. The difference they get is the canon minion every 1.5 minutes. That is around 4-5 gold every 30 sec.
2. junglers get a bit less gold in the first 2 clears, but the extra g/10 makes up for that in the first clear and increases the gold in the second one.

http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/a...season-3-goals

Read through this article for the maths on lane and jungle gold. For both you get a nice table without the g/10 added.

3.
At 13:30 lanes get around 200 less gold through farming but the same amount through the extra g/10. That means at that time they are equal.

Junglers get equal at around 11:00 already without the extra g/10.


4. lanes take buffs (like always), but taking camps needs more time for them. The amount gets reduced. Before, a good AP mid champ started at around 3-4 minutes into the game. The ADC started as early as possible.
Now the ADC starts around 8-12 minutes into the game.
The AP champ does the same.
If you are good that leaves you at least 4 more wraith camps with at least 200 gold for you.

5. you can do both. What did you do in S2? you did gank all the time. there was no way to farm. You took g/10 and you got yout gold like the supporter with the small bonus of some camps. Now you can decide what to do.
S2 jungle was the worst thing ever in this game.
S1 jungle had the problem that jungle was hard but the spawn times were so high that you cleared and then ganked in the time between. It was a pattern and no real desicion.
They wanted to fix that, but the g/10 and lanes farming the jungler permanently was a problem in the end.
=> Harder jungle like in S1, but with faster spawn times so that you have to choose what to do. And still HP and mana gain from camps to make the jungler more open and the junglers less blue reliant (variety).
the problem is junglers now take a good 10-15 seconds longer for each clear along with most having to back in the middle of clear leading to a even bigger gold sink

the guy at reign of gaming also did not take into account that the camps gold went up while alive


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xBaron Nashorx

Senior Member

12-05-2012

^edit above post and specify "went up while alive in season 2"
Gold bank is dead as of S3 jungle.


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Poofums

Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayleorfeed View Post
because with a new jungle you want to use ap reds, mr quints, as seals and masturbation blues

yeah right
I have no clue how any of those runes you stated relate to the jungle at all.

And no, you want to not nearly die at Level 3 with a jungling Champion when trying exactly what he did without a damaging partner who wanted to leash me like he had left me in there until I was killing camps faster then they spawned without going back once. His jungling on some champs was laughably bad, and I think people should try things for themselves before emulating whoever can record a Youtube video.


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Rush Hour

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
Well, I played a game as Warwick recently where I got kind of trollsy and built Alacrity Mobility boots. I got smiteless leashes on both buffs and after first clear I kept the entire jungle cleared the entire time. I always ganked after a full clear and got early gold off of 2 successful ganks. After finishing wriggles I was clearing camps in only a couple of seconds. My farm and gold income were still far lower than they should have been with my success. It may be that Warwick is a slow jungler in this new jungle, but at the rate I was clearing that does not seem very likely...Unless there is a way to have more that 95% downtime on camps while still ganking.


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poofums View Post
I have no clue how any of those runes you stated relate to the jungle at all.

And no, you want to not nearly die at Level 3 with a jungling Champion when trying exactly what he did without a damaging partner who wanted to leash me like he had left me in there until I was killing camps faster then they spawned without going back once. His jungling on some champs was laughably bad, and I think people should try things for themselves before emulating whoever can record a Youtube video.
ok, ok

tell me what runes you would use on lets say darius


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ssparda

Senior Member

12-05-2012

When you end your clear, ganking is WAY too risky because:

1. Even starting machete, you're too low to gank. Happened to me even popping all 5 pots.
2. You also have an item disadvantage, since machete does **** all to help ganks.

Your second option is to start boots and die at red buff. Nice way to get people not to gank. Just call it a nerf please, it's not a rework.

The saddest part is, jungling was a lot of fun because it allowed smart junglers to balance losing lanes and sometimes snowball a lane. But now you can't snowball **** and when you come to gank you'll be so far behind you'll get 1v1'd by a big creep and end up adding kills to the already fed opponent.


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Poofums

Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayleorfeed View Post
ok, ok

tell me what runes you would use on lets say darius
Armor pen or flat attack quints and marks, flat armor seals and growing mr glyphs. Might consider opting for movement speed quints depending on if I was playing with teammates or randoms.


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

12-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntax Er0r View Post
Watched Saintvicious today.

GP Jungle with mandreds/avarice blade rush. He turned out just fine.

-Syntax
the troll custom games with 18 assist?