Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Crucius, the Scion of Madness

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KayGirl89

Member

12-11-2012

I like the idea of this guy so here goes my first attempt at a helpful champ review. Since I'm not a numbers person I won't be touching on any of that.

Grip of Insanity reminds me of an ability of Ares from Smite. I dont' know if you play Smite, so I'd like to describe it a bit cause you could incorporate aspects of it for Crucius. For one it's a skill shot, with very fast projectile speed. It deals damage to minions it passes through and latches onto the first champion hit. If he hits a champion with it he can fire another, if that hits a champion, even the same champion, he can fire one more.

I think that second part of the ability would work very well for the chain stacking his ultimate allows. It would reward precision and help balance it. That brings up the point that you haven't mentioned whether the abilities are skill shots or targeted, you should do that. Perhaps a cone for Q, targeted for W and line skill-shot for E.

The league doesn't have enough champs with ults that change their state, imo, so I really like that. You don't mention any visual changes that occur while it is active though and I really think you need to have that. It should be something easily noticeable so other players can tell your ult is active. Maybe he babbles incoherently constantly while having a magic glow of some kind.

Also, Patient Crucius would be a cool skin. Him in a straight jacket, the spikes from the chains sticking out through it.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on him, I think he sounds really cool. Good job. Could you give a review to my new champion idea, Gladius - The King's Revenge (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2893806) ? I would very much appreciate it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The5lacker

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
KayGirl89:
I like the idea of this guy so here goes my first attempt at a helpful champ review. Since I'm not a numbers person I won't be touching on any of that.

Grip of Insanity reminds me of an ability of Ares from Smite. I dont' know if you play Smite, so I'd like to describe it a bit cause you could incorporate aspects of it for Crucius. For one it's a skill shot, with very fast projectile speed. It deals damage to minions it passes through and latches onto the first champion hit. If he hits a champion with it he can fire another, if that hits a champion, even the same champion, he can fire one more.

I think that second part of the ability would work very well for the chain stacking his ultimate allows. It would reward precision and help balance it. That brings up the point that you haven't mentioned whether the abilities are skill shots or targeted, you should do that. Perhaps a cone for Q, targeted for W and line skill-shot for E.

The league doesn't have enough champs with ults that change their state, imo, so I really like that. You don't mention any visual changes that occur while it is active though and I really think you need to have that. It should be something easily noticeable so other players can tell your ult is active. Maybe he babbles incoherently constantly while having a magic glow of some kind.

Also, Patient Crucius would be a cool skin. Him in a straight jacket, the spikes from the chains sticking out through it.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on him, I think he sounds really cool. Good job. Could you give a review to my new champion idea, Gladius - The King's Revenge (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2893806) ? I would very much appreciate it.

Q is a circlular AoE around him, W is a linear skillshot, and E is a single target. It's usually implied through its description. Q is "Enemies around him", W is "in a line", and E is "an enemy."

Still haven't decided the visual effects of his ult. Probably be similar to Tryndamere's, a sort of flickering, crimson glow around him.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The5lacker

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Bumpin'


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The5lacker

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Bumpin'


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The5lacker

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Bumpin'


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The5lacker

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Bumpin'


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ploki122

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Well, I'm not sure how useful my review will be since it's going in a similar way to the other ones you so easily discarded...

But yeah, first of all, I see multiple conflicting natures in this concept :

Caster vs Rage
I know there are some exceptions, but manaless casters are pretty rare... There are energy users, who are still limited in a similar way, and there is katarina, rumble and tryndamere. If you look at them, katarina is on the very strong side, and requires heavy commitment to deal decent damage (2nd proc on Q, short range on W, Shunpo requires to jump in, and ult is a channel around you), rumble is on the strong side and requires heavy planning (must be between 50% and 100% heat to maximize results), and tryndamere is plain broken (1.5AP heal and 1AP spin every few seconds, and he never runs out of mana). So basically, all casters are either limited in the long term (mana), short term (energy) or in execution (3 "OP"s).

What we have here is a manaless champion who can spam-happy as he likes, with decent ranges, and no restrictive behaviors. Not only that, but he has 2 reliable heals in his kit. It's like Vladimir, but with no costs, and thus no choices... if you aren't casting, always, you are doing it wrong.

Conflicting interactions
So you have a passive that gives you stats for stacking your fury, and a Q who drains it all away...
It also seems to me like you are trying to force a possible hybridization... Innate gives AP (+mage), Q is CC without any scaling (+tank), W scales on AP, with high base dmg (+mage, +tank), E scales on AP (+mage), R gives you AD stats (+AD). Honestly, I feel like every builds would be possible, but only 1 would actually work well - and I'd bet on an irelia build - and it'll be terribly OP.



Now let's dig deeper into the kit :
Innate : Like Karma's but with no cons... Karma gains up to 130 AP based on her missing HP, you gain up to 110 AP by spamming spells and attacks. Honestly, in my mind, this has to be toned down and/or tweaked.

Q : A basic ability that drains you fury honestly feels awkward to me. Also, when empowered, you gain access to a 4s AoE fear, and you thought fiddle's 3s targeted fear was rough... The worst part is that it's on a 6s cd with capped cdr, so if you ult, get a couple of E running and flash Q, you can link in an Amumu/Galio ult and re-AoeCC for another 4s, or a total of 10s of AoE CC... If you build tank, have fun out-ccing everyone else... together.

W : This one, at first sight, seems like it deals a bit too much damage (either base, or scaling, depending on how you want your champion to be played). Also, I think it's weird how W feels so weak compared to Q and E.

E : unempowered, if there's a problem it's a problem of balance, not concept (aka numbers, like W). Once empowered tho... with only 6 tethers up, you can easily heal yourself for 2-300 hp per seconds, dealing roughly 100dps per target... Pair this with, maybe, a Morgana, who has an AoE slow followed by an AoE stunm or a Jarvan... and you just won your teamfight.

R : A huge ****ton of stats... You can basically gain 140AD, 80% LS, 40%AS and 40% MS. First, MS... 40% MS is pretty much 1.14 times the ghost with mastery... Now, add onto that a Recurve Bow and a Dagger (1350g), and roughly 6-7k worth of LS/AD... At level 16, you can probably win any 1v5 without using your QWE...



Honestly, how I see this concept is that you thought a rage mage would be nice, so you made a mage, with nice ragey abilities (ult/Q), and the you put some mage abilities in there (P/W/E), and since you thought it lacked cohesion, you made a tweak here and there to add fury. Basically, I think this kit lacks a purpose more than anything else.



P.s. Before you go saying that Tryn's Q does consume all his Fury, just try looking at the rest of his kit, and tell me how many generates fury, and how many uses them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The5lacker

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
ploki122:
Well, I'm not sure how useful my review will be since it's going in a similar way to the other ones you so easily discarded...

But yeah, first of all, I see multiple conflicting natures in this concept :

Caster vs Rage
I know there are some exceptions, but manaless casters are pretty rare... There are energy users, who are still limited in a similar way, and there is katarina, rumble and tryndamere. If you look at them, katarina is on the very strong side, and requires heavy commitment to deal decent damage (2nd proc on Q, short range on W, Shunpo requires to jump in, and ult is a channel around you), rumble is on the strong side and requires heavy planning (must be between 50% and 100% heat to maximize results), and tryndamere is plain broken (1.5AP heal and 1AP spin every few seconds, and he never runs out of mana). So basically, all casters are either limited in the long term (mana), short term (energy) or in execution (3 "OP"s).

What we have here is a manaless champion who can spam-happy as he likes, with decent ranges, and no restrictive behaviors. Not only that, but he has 2 reliable heals in his kit. It's like Vladimir, but with no costs, and thus no choices... if you aren't casting, always, you are doing it wrong.

Conflicting interactions
So you have a passive that gives you stats for stacking your fury, and a Q who drains it all away...
It also seems to me like you are trying to force a possible hybridization... Innate gives AP (+mage), Q is CC without any scaling (+tank), W scales on AP, with high base dmg (+mage, +tank), E scales on AP (+mage), R gives you AD stats (+AD). Honestly, I feel like every builds would be possible, but only 1 would actually work well - and I'd bet on an irelia build - and it'll be terribly OP.



Now let's dig deeper into the kit :
Innate : Like Karma's but with no cons... Karma gains up to 130 AP based on her missing HP, you gain up to 110 AP by spamming spells and attacks. Honestly, in my mind, this has to be toned down and/or tweaked.

Q : A basic ability that drains you fury honestly feels awkward to me. Also, when empowered, you gain access to a 4s AoE fear, and you thought fiddle's 3s targeted fear was rough... The worst part is that it's on a 6s cd with capped cdr, so if you ult, get a couple of E running and flash Q, you can link in an Amumu/Galio ult and re-AoeCC for another 4s, or a total of 10s of AoE CC... If you build tank, have fun out-ccing everyone else... together.

W : This one, at first sight, seems like it deals a bit too much damage (either base, or scaling, depending on how you want your champion to be played). Also, I think it's weird how W feels so weak compared to Q and E.

E : unempowered, if there's a problem it's a problem of balance, not concept (aka numbers, like W). Once empowered tho... with only 6 tethers up, you can easily heal yourself for 2-300 hp per seconds, dealing roughly 100dps per target... Pair this with, maybe, a Morgana, who has an AoE slow followed by an AoE stunm or a Jarvan... and you just won your teamfight.

R : A huge ****ton of stats... You can basically gain 140AD, 80% LS, 40%AS and 40% MS. First, MS... 40% MS is pretty much 1.14 times the ghost with mastery... Now, add onto that a Recurve Bow and a Dagger (1350g), and roughly 6-7k worth of LS/AD... At level 16, you can probably win any 1v5 without using your QWE...



Honestly, how I see this concept is that you thought a rage mage would be nice, so you made a mage, with nice ragey abilities (ult/Q), and the you put some mage abilities in there (P/W/E), and since you thought it lacked cohesion, you made a tweak here and there to add fury. Basically, I think this kit lacks a purpose more than anything else.



P.s. Before you go saying that Tryn's Q does consume all his Fury, just try looking at the rest of his kit, and tell me how many generates fury, and how many uses them.

And as usual people only look at the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM DAMAGE HE CAN DEAL, and not what'll actually happen. Yes, he's rewarded for spamming. He's a spammy mage. He also has pretty long cooldowns on both of his primary farming tools, and before he gets his ult, only one form of cc, which then immediately drops his damage output by a heavy chunk.

I wouldn't call 375/650/650 "Decent ranges." Almost every other mid-lane champion out-ranges him, and pretty hard too. In addition, as a melee mage, he's very vulnerable to zoning. While his W can be used to farm pretty well, it's his only farming tool, and has a 14 second cooldown at rank 1. 14 seconds. For his only farming ability.

Now, I could see your concerns with his ult...if he could just toggle it on and leave it for the entire game. But apparently the cumulative health cost didn't get to you. Do you know how fast Swain's ult burns through mana? Even with his ult killing boatloads of minions which restore mana, and an Athene's Holy Grail? He's lucking to get more than five seconds out of it, and then he's dangerously low. Now, lets take that situation, and make it a champion's health.

The ult gives a lot of stats because he's going to need them. Between the drastic life-loss, short attack range, and lack of any real burst damage, he's going to need to get into the fray and out sustain them. Hard. While 80% lifesteal may seem high, Sion gets 100% lifesteal and an AoE heal around him. For 20 seconds. With no health cost. I'm not overly concerned, seeing as, again, this is 25 health per second...for the first second. Then 32 health. Then 39. 46. 53. 60. 67. 74. 81. All of this, ticking away as the enemy cc's him and he's left with no damage output, and no sustain to keep the health cost at bay.

Crucius was built from the ground up to be a fury-based caster. I decided I didn't want to go the Renekton route and just have him periodically consume it for added bonuses, and I didn't want it to just be Ult fuel like with Shyvana. I wanted it to be a resource you have to maintain, a resource tied to one, critical ability that could save you, but would make you lose out on the passive bonuses the Fury gives you. My basic concept going in was "Mage Tryndamere." With Tryn, you don't see his passive interact with his abilities other than his Q, but that's because he's not a mage. He's not an AD caster. He's a carry, and a damned good one at that. His passive gives him a hefty bonus to his autoattacks, so when I decided I'd design a fury-based AP caster, that's what I went in with: A fury-based caster who benefits from dealing as much damage as possible in a short period of time, to build up a decent chunk of AP.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ploki122

Senior Member

02-18-2013

I find it pretty funny how accurate my guess that you would insta-discard it was...

Quote:
The5lacker:
And as usual people only look at the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM DAMAGE HE CAN DEAL, and not what'll actually happen. Yes, he's rewarded for spamming. He's a spammy mage. He also has pretty long cooldowns on both of his primary farming tools, and before he gets his ult, only one form of cc, which then immediately drops his damage output by a heavy chunk.

Ok you 100% got me on that one... just kidding. Actually... are YOU kidding me? What do you think you balance a champions on? You don't say "well, in 90% of the cases he do normal-to-strong damages"... In my mind an unbalanced champion is a champion for who "Well, I don't wanna feed him or he can be literally unstoppable" can be said. In this case, you created by far the biggest snowball in this game. Now if it was only number tweaks, I'd be ok with that, but the champion is conceptually flawed...
Quote:

I wouldn't call 375/650/650 "Decent ranges." Almost every other mid-lane champion out-ranges him, and pretty hard too. In addition, as a melee mage, he's very vulnerable to zoning. While his W can be used to farm pretty well, it's his only farming tool, and has a 14 second cooldown at rank 1. 14 seconds. For his only farming ability.

Yeah... it's not like any other melee champion with farming tools on a medium-to-high cd exists... First of all, I can look at Cho'Gath (9 or 13), Kassasdin (9 or 6 charges), Diana (9 or 10)... They aren't that far off, and they require mana, so if you choose to endlessly spam to farm, you run out of fighting abilities. Then, if you prefer, I can look at Warwick and Amumu... Whose only farming tools are melee range on a ~10s cd... and you're the the worst. Sure they are seldom seen against a mage, but what forces you to pick this champion to go mid? You could jungle him, you could even just swap with top lane.

Also, what prevents this champion from jungling? he has more CC than shyvana to gank, and I don't think his clear speed would be terrible (you obviously level R>E/W>Q)... And from level 6+, he has a snare to initiate, some E damage, and a Q to keep the guy around for 4s (that is why scaling CC duration hasn't been touched by Riot yet)... I'd take this guy over jungle fidd any time.

And yeah... Kassadin has only unreliable CCs and ranges even worse than this champ... So you're not the worst, and what if you was? You aren't forced to mid...
Quote:

Now, I could see your concerns with his ult...if he could just toggle it on and leave it for the entire game. But apparently the cumulative health cost didn't get to you. Do you know how fast Swain's ult burns through mana? Even with his ult killing boatloads of minions which restore mana, and an Athene's Holy Grail? He's lucking to get more than five seconds out of it, and then he's dangerously low. Now, lets take that situation, and make it a champion's health.

it's really interesting how you discarded the fact that I said it was way too easy to heal with this champ... Once your ultimate is up, if you simply have a couple of minions around you, you can E them all and heal yourself multiple hundreds of hp per seconds (you seem to have trouble seeing number, so I spelled it out).
Quote:

The ult gives a lot of stats because he's going to need them. Between the drastic life-loss, short attack range, and lack of any real burst damage, he's going to need to get into the fray and out sustain them. Hard. While 80% lifesteal may seem high, Sion gets 100% lifesteal and an AoE heal around him. For 20 seconds. With no health cost. I'm not overly concerned, seeing as, again, this is 25 health per second...for the first second. Then 32 health. Then 39. 46. 53. 60. 67. 74. 81. All of this, ticking away as the enemy cc's him and he's left with no damage output, and no sustain to keep the health cost at bay.

How does he need it more than anyone else? Did you limit the number of items he can buy? And why would he leave it on? Honestly, unless there is a ton of minions for me to E, I don't see myself keeping it up for much longer than 4-5 seconds... And he can steal 6s worth of ult in 1 E (or in like 2-3 auto-attacks).

Also, I don't think that a growing health cost is conceptually balanced. Your champion should be enjoyable for yourself and the others, whether you're fed or not (this is why Morello wants to remake burst champions like Leblanc and Veigar, they don't fit this). There are no numbers that will limit a fed Crucius while still allowing one that is behind to use it. The hp difference will usually be ~50-100%, and the damage similarly different. So I think that the easiest way to win a game against this champ is to go 2v1 against him, and only gank his lane, it'll turn the late-game into a 4v5 with a nuisance on the side. In the same way, the best way to win is to only gank his lane, and let him farm the jungle... He has the tools (manaless, high base damages, lots of lifesteal) to be able to carry a game like no one else. So if you see a Crucius in a game, expect both junglers to sit his lane, and only his.
Quote:

Crucius was built from the ground up to be a fury-based caster. I decided I didn't want to go the Renekton route and just have him periodically consume it for added bonuses, and I didn't want it to just be Ult fuel like with Shyvana. I wanted it to be a resource you have to maintain, a resource tied to one, critical ability that could save you, but would make you lose out on the passive bonuses the Fury gives you. My basic concept going in was "Mage Tryndamere." With Tryn, you don't see his passive interact with his abilities other than his Q, but that's because he's not a mage. He's not an AD caster. He's a carry, and a damned good one at that. His passive gives him a hefty bonus to his autoattacks, so when I decided I'd design a fury-based AP caster, that's what I went in with: A fury-based caster who benefits from dealing as much damage as possible in a short period of time, to build up a decent chunk of AP.

Well, I kinda saw you referenced Tryn's kit... but honestly, I don't believe the reason only his Q interacts with his fury isn't because he's a melee ADC. It has to do with playstyle... Tryndamere is a champion that can go balls deep. He is supposed to go in, deal a ****ton of damage, and either escape (if possible) or go ballsdeeper and get a kill. If you look at his kit :

Innate : If he fights, he gets stronger.
Q : Remove his fury to heal himself, used after you closed the fight to prepare for the next on. Later on, because of the crit/LS relationship, you should never heal unless you don't think you will hit something before your bar is empty.
W : Serves to fight. He drops his opponents damage and allows him to chase, this is very "balls deep".
E : Spin to farm fury and initiate. Combat (read as crits) reduce the cooldown on this so he can actually try to escape from the fight if it turns sour.
R : I can't die "You will go down"/"Stop chasing me, I won't die".

So basically, he goes in, dps, and go back out using his fury to heal himself (either from critting or from Q). That is what I meant with my .s., Tryndamere generates fury with 3 of his spells (P/E/R) and only uses (consumes) it on one. You generate it on 3 (P/W/E), and uses it on

What your mage does should do is probably something along the lines of : go in, use WE to soften/poke enemies, use Ultimate to all in and finish with Q. The problem with this is that using your Q makes everything weaker (and since E is an infinite duration tether... you are sure to drop its damage at any points). By casting Q during your Ultimate, you lose 110 AP and 140 AD... that is the best Unclear Optimization (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417) I've ever seen.


123