[Champion Concept ver. 2.0] Shia, The Void's Timid Doppel

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blackkat101

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Have done quick looks at your Gil and Vindictam, Liam Geegeeson. As well as posted some quick thoughts on them. Sadly I have to get to class or I would have delved deeper into my reviews. Maybe I'll look them over again another time.


- Kat


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blackkat101

Senior Member

12-12-2012

I am sorry for any head trauma that I may have incurred with my wall of text Liam, but now to discuss some of your thoughts on Shia.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Geegeeson
Main Body's Q:

Okay I personally think any permafrost without any sort of penalties is too strong. Sure you need to land three auto-attacks before it becomes as strong as Ashe's but having unlimited slow is pretty strong. In League of Legends Crowd Control abilities are highly preferred and recommended - for good reason. However, I think you balanced this out with the fact that her only other form of CC has a very high cooldown. Even then, I think maybe this should be revised.

Main Body's Q: Stay Away!

Perma slow can be strong, but let's look at Shia's main body. With her passive, she has a 50-20% reduction to the stats she is receiving from her items. Her slow, if fully stacked to 3 attacks will give a max slow of 12% at level 1 and 36% at level 5 and this is only if she can hit all three auto-attacks within 2 seconds. So to get to that point, you need to stay in range to attack, and continually attack with less stats than any other champion from items.

That is why I felt that not having a mana cost would be fine. Comparing it to Ashe, Ashe's Frost Shot costs 8 mana per auto attack, but it gives a 15% - 35% slow per auto-attack for two seconds. That is a much stronger slow that only needs to hit once for the full duration. This makes it much easier for Ashe to kite, while Shia, who would most likely be kiting (meaning most likely only able to hit one auto-attack for her slow) would be slowing enemies (if don't the same as Ashe) 6% - 18%.

Shia to be able to even use that slow efficiently, would need to build some attack speed because with her base speed, when her third attack hits, the stronger slow would only last .66 of a second instead of a full 2 (since all three slows need to be on to be giving the full slow).

Some of the people I've talked with that I play League with even thought the slow that small may be unnoticeable. That is why I posted the idea of adding an active to Stay Away! just a bit ago. Though no one's responded on their thoughts to that.

One way for any character in League to get a perma-slow would be to buy a Frozen Mallet. This does cost you 3300g, but nets you 700hp, 30ad, and a slowing passive for auto-attacks. This gives melee champions a 40% slow and ranged champions a 30% slow for 1.5 seconds on every basic attack. An item like Frozen Mallet may be nice on Shia, but remember, Shia only has AP scaling. So by getting such an item for the added slow (and hp) causes you to lose out on a large amount of AP.... but I digress (would have to see how it plays out if Shia is made).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Geegeeson
Doppelganger W:

Waltz in the Light seems like a reasonable skills. The low base damage matches the meta of most gap-closing abilities. (Oh and btw I love how you made her skills scale AP but deal physical damage. It really peeks my interest.) Also, naturally with only 2 nuke abilities Shia's Doppelganger should lose out in DPS even if she can do considerate damage with her auto-attacks. However because the scaling on her skills scale AP - which tend to scale higher than AD scalings - she balances out. My only concern is the cooldown scaling with level. I think it would make more sense to give one cooldown. Late game this skill could be game breaking with a cooldown of 5 seconds. It gives her invincibility time, with considerate physical damage. With enough DPS built through items, you could use Q + Mirrored Retaliation + Q for a total of 4 seconds of invincibility. With that much time you could easily take out a carry without losing out - not to mention it's Shia's main body that you want to target. I would instead give this skill a cooldown of 8 or 7 that doesn't scale with level.
First, looking at this (and what you say about Mirrored Retaliation), I believe you've read Mirrored Retaliation wrong. It does not give her doppel invinsibility, but I'll get to that on that part. For now I'll focus on Waltz in the Light.

Doppel Body's Q: Waltz in the Light

Your main concern is the seems to be the cooldown. At it's max rank, it gives a 5 second cooldown. With full cooldown reductions (40% is the max) you get a 3 sec cooldown. This is placed in below the ability in the original post:

~
With the maximum cooldown of 40%, at level 5, Waltz in the Light will have a cooldown of 3 seconds. This means that the enemy champion can hit her for 2.5 seconds before she is able to Waltz again. This is so that Waltzing does not make her permanently invincible.


This means, if you build full cooldown you're still going to be hit by the enemy for 2.5 seconds. Even if you use Mirrored retaliation, at it's max rank, you reduce the damage to your doppel by 50%. This helps her survive, but if you build Shia for damage, she is going to be taking a lot of punishment in this time still. That and Mirrored Retaliations very long cooldown, you'd only be able to mix that in once. This gives the enemy champions plenty of time to attack Shia via 4-14 auto-attacks or less if they mix in abilities (given that Shia is close to then, even skill shots shouldn't miss).

This doesn't mean I'm not toying with increasing the cooldown a bit, but not by much as I wanted Shia to be able to dance around her opponent. I shall change the cooldown on Waltz in the Light after hearing the opinion of a few others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Geegeeson
Shia's Main Body W:

I'm not so sure I understand this skill so I'm not going to review it before I understand it. Here are my questions:

Let A = Ally Champion E = Enemy Champion and l = Wall.

This is the situation: A l E

So the the Ally Champion cannot be seen by the Enemy Champion because A is on the other side of the wall ? If an enemy is within the wall, does that mean they can't see anything at all until they walk out ? If the flee is not a fear effect, does it work like Hecarim's ultimate ?

If so, I think this skill works out fine in all its aspect except maybe revise the duration of the flee since 3 seconds is quite long. I'd say max 2 seconds.
Main Body's W: Veil of Shadow
If you are confused on how the ability works, I added in pictures and explained it more on the last post on page 2, but yes, in that situation, the enemy cannot see the ally champion.

The Flee is the Flee effect, so yes, like Hecarim's Ultimate. Flee causes the enemy to run away from the champion using it unlike Fear which just causes the enemy to run randomly. I did not want the enemy randomly wandering to the ally champions side of the Veil right away, thus defeating the purpose of the Veil.

From the OP:
~ Because the Veil of Shadow is thin, enemies cannot stand in the wall. They will always be treated as if they are on one side or the other depending on which side they are more on. If for some reason they are pixel for pixel in the center, they will be treated as if they are on the opposite side of the wall from Shia.

So no, there is no standing in the wall.

On how long the Flee lasts. It starts out at 2 seconds and makes it to 3 at max rank. It was given a slightly longer duration as while the wall does no damage. It has a high cooldown along with a high mana cost. On page 3, 4th post down, I compare Anivia, Karthus and Shia's walls. Anivia's blocks movement and abilities for 5 seconds and grants vision. Karthus's slows enemies up to 60% for 5 seconds and lowers their MR by 15%. His wall can apply that effect any time someone touches, not just on the cast. Both of their walls last 5 seconds. Shia's wall starts at 2 seconds and at max makes it to their 5. The Flee only lasts 2-3 seconds and is only applied if the enemy is hit by the wall when it is summoned. Other than that, Shia's wall only blocks vision and applies no other debuffs. On that post you can compare the CD's and mana costs along with any other stat to each other if you'd like. I posted it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Geegeeson
Doppelganger W:

I'd like to think that this is way too strong as a base of 300 with a scaling of 0.7 makes for one hell of a nuke - not to mention that it reduces armor with scaling ! However, Shia really only has 2 nukes so might work out.. I still think it's way too strong especially with a cooldown of 7 seconds. Remember that the Doppelganger will probably end up being an AD Carry or Bruiser so her auto-attacks will be a main source of DPS.
Doppel Body's W: Aegis Severer
To compare your damage concerns to another champion, let's look at someone like Darius (yay OP champions).

Darius' Q: Decimate
Range: 425 (radius of shaft 1-270) (radius of blade 270-425)
CD: 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5
Cost: 40 (all 5 ranks)
Shaft Damage: 70 / 105 / 140 / 175 / 210 (+ 70% Bonus AD)
Blade Damage: 105 / 157.5 / 210 / 262.5 / 315 (+1.05 per attack damage)
~ This is an AoE attack able to hit everything around him.

Doppel Body's W: Aegis Severer
Range: 450 (30 degree cone skill shot)
CD: 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7
Cost: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100
Damage: 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (+0.7 per ability power)
Armor Pen: 10% (+0.06 per ability power)
~ This will only hit in the direction you attack.
~ 0.7 ap scaling is the same as 1.16 ad scaling (0.6 ap scaling is the same as 1 ad scaling) in terms of how much it costs to build AD compared to AP.
~ You would need to build almost pure AP items to get around 500ap, at which point you'd raise the armor pen of the skill to 40%. This means you couldn't build something like Last Whisper or Black Cleaver to help with the armor pen. If you did, you may get some more armor pen, but you would be loosing out on the AP scaling to increase the damage.
~ This also has a longer cooldown than Darius' Decimate as well as having 2.5 times the mana cost. So I believe the cost is covered for the armor pen.
~ Also, and as you mentioned as well, Shia only has 2 damaging abilities. Being only her Q and W on her doppel.

Now this is just one example, but I did, when balancing Shia's Aegis Severer, compared it to multiple other champions as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Geegeeson
Doppleganger E:

You can't change my mind. I will never accept this ability as it's basically Kayle's ultimate but better - and it isn't even an ultimate.
Doppel Body's E: Mirrored Retaliation
Here is where I believe you have a misunderstanding. I have comparisons of Shia's E compared to Fiora's Riposte, Kayle's Intervention, and Galio's Idol of Durand all on page 2's first post.

But I will repost the comparison part of that here (if you want to see exact stats of those comparisons, take a look there):

Kayle's to Shia's
~ Intervention has comparable cost at starting levels to Mirrored reflection, but then makes it to half the cost when both are maxed.
~ Intervention does have a long CD. Mirrored Reflection's CD starts long, does reduce as it level's, but with still a decently long CD. When both maxed Kayle's has twice the CD (at 60 sec to 30 sec, compared to rank 1 at 100 sec to 70 sec).
~ Intervention gives full invincibility for 2-3 seconds. Can be self cast or cast on an ally in range. Deals no damage.
~ Mirrored Retaliation lasts 2-3 sec. Only the main body, which is immovable receives full protection and reflects full damage (no bonus). The doppel body only receives 10-50% protection, and reflects that amount. That means the doppel body is still taking 90-50% of the damage. Not invincible.
~ Mirrored Retaliation has a small channel time and can only be cast when the doppel is out, while Intervention can be cast at any time and does not interrupt Kayle.
~ Mirrored Retaliation stops any new CC effects from being applied, while Intervention has no effect on CC.

The bolded part was added just now. If you have question or think it is too much still, please let me know specifically what you think is too strong/weak. I would like to know why you think Mirrored Retaliation is that much better than Intervention. While yes, the main body recieves a reflective invincible status, it is invisible and most likely not the target of the opponent because of that. Also for the shield to reach the main body, there is the 0.2 second channel time and depending on how far away the main body is, it could take 0-1 second for it to reach the main body to protect it (depending on how far away the main body is from the doppel). This means that 2-3 seconds of protection can be reduced to 1-2. Likewise, that 0.2 second channel affects how quickly the shield is applied the doppel body too, if you hit it too late, you take full damage from an attack you were trying to take less damage from. The doppel also still takes 90-50% of the damage, it does not gain invincibility. But now I'm just repeating myself, so I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Geegeeson
Ultimate:

Makes sense, I just don't understand 2 things:

What happens when the Doppelganger walks out of range ? How do you control both Shia and her Doppleganger ?
As explained in the notes below the Doppelganger, it cannot walk out of range. Think of it like hitting a wall. The doppel body is tethered to the main body like a dog on a leash. That means if the enemy can figure out your range, they can play keep away and poke you out of range and you would not be able to attack back.

You do not control both Shia and her Doppelganger at the same time. While in control of Shia's main body, that is all there is on the map and you play normally. When you summon the Doppelganger (as mentioned in the OP), Shia's main body become rooted to the spot and the Doppelganger comes forth. The Doppelganger is now tethered to a range around Shia's main body (that is now immovable, stuck in place), but can move anywhere in that range and do her thing. If you want to move the main body again, you have to release the Doppelganger, thus back to square one.


=================================================


Hope that clears up any confusion. If I misunderstood your comments, please let me know and I'll fix that. If not and you believe changes should be made to a specific ability, could I ask that you list some suggestion on how you think they should be changed? That way I can compare them to other champions to further balance and take your notes into consideration.


- Kat


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Liam Geegeeson

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Ohhh. That clears many things up ! Sorry for my being ignorant. I guess i'm illiterate e.e

I'm glad the invincibility doesn't apply to the Doppelganger. Had me worried x) I think it's perfectly balanced now that I understand it.

I also completely agree with how her Doppelganger works. Makes me think though, how or even where I should play. Interesting. Probably top ? o-o However Shia is suuuper reliant on her Doppelganger. High skill cap !


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blackkat101

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Glad to hear that some of it's cleared up.

Shia was meant to be an AD carry on the bottom or and AD Bruiser on top. After creating her lore, I decided to make her reliant on her Doppelganger (almost so much to a point that "Acquaintance 1" asked me why she even had the main body, but that would defeat the purpose of Shia).

I like high skill caps as it makes me think more when playing than just point and click. With Shia having her Doppelganger tethered to her main body, you really have to think where you decide to summon so that you can move in the range you want and so that when you release your doppel to retreat, your main body is hopefully in a safe place to run away.

Shia's biggest bane will be Vision Wards and Oracles. If they can see her main body, she is in for a world of hurt.



- Kat


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Tehrinite

Senior Member

12-13-2012

beymp


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Liam Geegeeson

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Hey kat ! Care to look at my newest champion ? It would be greatly appreciated

Jin Hua, the Martial Blade http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2900083


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blackkat101

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Given you a quick response on that champion Liam.

- Kat


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Liam Geegeeson

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Thank you so much ! I saw it and I agree with you on most of what you said, but I'm having trouble trying to balance him out. I actually asked you something with another post on my thread, so if you could check it out and provide feedback i'd appreciate it ! Sorry to pester you about it btw.


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Liam Geegeeson

Senior Member

12-14-2012

I just think you're very insightful and detailed.


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blackkat101

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Here is another thought I had on Stay Away!

This version has no passive, but a cone skillshot slow.

Would love to hear thoughts on this version of Shia's main body Q, compared to the last experimental version (page 5, post 3) and her original version on the original post.

Is there a favorite between the three?


=======================================


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4b. Q: Stay Away!
Main Body's Q: Stay Away!
___________________________________
|_Mana Cost:____| 50/ 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 _ ___|
|_Damage:_____ | - _______________ ___|
|_Cooldown:___ _| 10 / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10 sec._|
|_Range:_______| 1000 (60 degree cone)__|



Feeling more self conscious than normal, Shia throws up her hands in front of her letting out a force of energy slowing those in front of her by 30% (+0.06 per ability power) for (2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4) sec.
~ Keeping with her timid theme, while Shia may possess greater power, she has no confidence in herself like this making this her best effort to keep people away.

~ To see how strong the slow can get with a +0.06 scaling, here are some examples:
--- 400ap = 54% slow
--- 500ap = 60% slow
--- 600ap = 66% slow
--- 700ap = 72% slow

~ Putting scaling on the slow is to encourage building AP.


~ Procs
Rylai’s slow, similar to multi target spells, with diminished effects.

~ Black Shield negates the slow.

~
Pop's Spell Shield



=======================================

(like with the last experimental version of Stay Away!, bolded is the differences from the original)




- Kat


*edit
Pointed out to me, Rylai's can only proc if damage is dealt with the ability, so it will not proc like it says above, one more effect is added to it on the original post as Stay Away! was changed to this.