Feedback on the state of 'Bottom Lane'

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Nyx87

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Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyDeadGrandma View Post
It would be fine if draft pick were the only game mode.

I agree with this sentiment here. We would see a larger variety of botlaners if draft were still played. I used to run oddball champs like Irelia, Xin Zhao, Akali, TF, and even Janna because i could see what i was up against and choose a champion that had ways to beat that.

Aside from that, Bottom lane is in a horrible horrible state. It is essentially SR's Top lane for 20 mins, only 10x worse because you can't ward from ganks and hypercarries like Jax and Jayce can never be denied Gold and Exp through zoning because they get it through just standing there so certain match-ups from SR's top lane do not play out on Dom's bot lane.

For example, given equal skill, Irelia beats Jayce in SR, and I mean a mediocre Irelia crushes an expert Jayce. This is because she can gain a clear gold advantage through harass and using bladesurge to gap close twice(once to a near death minion next to jayce and again after jayce has knocked her back). Once she does, she can zone him from both XP and GP. Jayce never reaches critical mass and the game is 4v5 at that point. In dominion this type of lane match up does not exist, Jayce will get gold and levels for free and reach critical mass, albeit a bit slower if he is zoned.

Then come the ganks. It doesn't even have to be by assassins, sometimes all your opposing botlaner needs is someone to hold you in place to blow you up.

I will end on this note though, the current meta is set by us, the players. If we want to change it, we can. We just need to demonstrate that we are all not sheeple and try new things, even if we lose occasionally.


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Wasn't Irelia demolished by Jayce at the tournament before last?

Just a small nitpick on a different tangent.


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Rikukun

Senior Member

12-03-2012

In my experience with bot lane lately, I have seen a really bad trend for game health (based on where I was when lolmatches was working I assume I am around 1900+ nowadays).

This trend is that Bot lane can go really stale really easily. By stale, I mean that there just isn't a lot of action happening. One of the things I like about dominion is that it is so action based. However, I keep seeing these aoe pushers that either dominate you and force you to sit at your turret, or just sit at their turret defending, taking away the PvP action from bot lane without ganks. In my opinion, bot lane should have a lot more action to it, however the current best way to play if you are the losing player right now is to stay way away from your opponent and farm.

I see myself being forced to play champs that can force fights to happen (even if it means play someone as OP as Jax who can sometimes dive) just so I can have some action happen instead of afk farming like on summoners rift. This is dominion. I love it more than summoners rift because of the pvp, and bot lane should have the pvp feel, not the pve feel of SR.

Just my 2 cents about bot lane.


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bierfaust

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikukun View Post
In my experience with bot lane lately, I have seen a really bad trend for game health (based on where I was when lolmatches was working I assume I am around 1900+ nowadays).

This trend is that Bot lane can go really stale really easily. By stale, I mean that there just isn't a lot of action happening. One of the things I like about dominion is that it is so action based. However, I keep seeing these aoe pushers that either dominate you and force you to sit at your turret, or just sit at their turret defending, taking away the PvP action from bot lane without ganks. In my opinion, bot lane should have a lot more action to it, however the current best way to play if you are the losing player right now is to stay way away from your opponent and farm.

I see myself being forced to play champs that can force fights to happen (even if it means play someone as OP as Jax who can sometimes dive) just so I can have some action happen instead of afk farming like on summoners rift. This is dominion. I love it more than summoners rift because of the pvp, and bot lane should have the pvp feel, not the pve feel of SR.

Just my 2 cents about bot lane.
You mean stale like a typical lane on SR?

That is sort of inevitable, the lane will always become about trading, farming or diving and killing. That's pretty much how it goes, the only way to mix it up is to gank, but due to the proximity of the towers to the base, makes it unfeesable most times. A great way to fix this would be a map restructure. Have a single ramp out in front, with the first point a fairly generous distance from the base and then have the map split into it's circular form. That way a gank on bot, assuming both people survive, would actually be worth while as you could cap the point before the enemy returns, unless they revive. (which is sitll a good trade because you can just gank again in 2 mins and they ownt have revive)
Another way to spice things up would be to have more quests pop during games, and also give different buffs.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Grez's Spectral Lantern

New Recipe: Cloth Armor + Vampiric Scepter
Total Gold Cost: 1250 (combine cost: 150)
+25 Attack Damage
+20 Armor
+12% Life Steal
Unique Passive: Your basic attacks against minions and monsters have a 20% chance to deal 200 bonus magic damage.
Unique Active: A stealth-detecting mist grants vision in the target area for 10 seconds (1 minute cooldown).
So, apparently, this is going to be an item in Dominion in 10ish hours.

Bot lane tier lists rewritten.


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Sauron

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
So, apparently, this is going to be an item in Dominion in 10ish hours.

Bot lane tier lists rewritten.
BFT now stands for Blackfire Tier.


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ShawNuff

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Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx87 View Post
I will end on this note though, the current meta is set by us, the players. If we want to change it, we can. We just need to demonstrate that we are all not sheeple and try new things, even if we lose occasionally.
Assuming the top players will always play to win, we also need to demonstrate that the status quo is not optimal.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
BFT now stands for Blackfire Tier.
So BFT vs. GSL Tier?


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

12-04-2012

Well, this was refreshing. I'm glad I'm not alone.

I've always felt bot lane was bad for the health of Dominion as a whole. There were a few issues with bottom lane brought up so far:
1) A small number of champions are dramatically better at it than others (Some 'super' carries, and some bruisers)
2) Playing bottom lane is a generally thankless job you reluctantly take
3) Playing bottom lane carries more negative team stigma than positive
4) Stalemate is often more important than actually doing anything useful

A separate issue brought up is Revive. That's a problem everywhere, depending on your stance on the spell.

I've always felt that bottom does one thing 'right'. It makes pushing the lane the smart thing to do, unlike SR. However, that comes with risks, extreme imbalance, and laning simply doesn't have a place in the context of Dominion. It shouldn't be there at all, period.

Now, outside of an entire map rework, there's only a few solutions I see here.

1) Empower the bottom lane rewards.
If it's worth more than the other towers, then more players will focus on it instead of Windmill. Ideas I had for empowering the bottom towers are buffs, or a big laser that shoots from the tower directly to the enemy nexus when you control their bottom tower. Alternatively, a passive gold buff.

This has obvious snowballing implications, which is why I lean towards direct Nexus damage over team buffs and gold buffs. I don't want snowballing to be an issue. I want to encourage bottom plays and jungle awareness. I want to eliminate a 'lane' and create another team contested zone. I want people to think, "Well, they're all up by Windmill. Let's take bottom, now!" I do not want any one player to be 'forced' to go down there, I want it to be a dynamic resource management decision.

2) Weaken the bottom lane rewards.
Rapid gold gain is one of the big benefits down there. Eliminate, or limit the minions that spawn there. Make it so there's little incentive to actually sit down there and lane/farm, and more incentive for the enemy team as a whole to decide players need to pressure that point.

I want to see that sometimes, it's a good idea to send 3 bottom and 2 top. Or 4 bottom and 1 top. Shouldn't the beginning fight be kind of a toss up? If there are 5 equally valuable points on the map - why are 4 of 5 players heading top? Well, bottom obviously isn't perceived as valuable.

How do we fix that?

Or, do we keep the lane and focus on making more champions viable bottom lane? I don't think so. This is Dominion. Last I checked, we don't want to lane.


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smXho

Senior Member

12-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosTempest195 View Post
A good bot laner wins you the game, yeah that's pretty much it
A good team ganks bot lane to prevent that, and then take the bottom turret (to make up for potentially loosing top)