Energy and Rage

First Riot Post
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AlienJ7

Senior Member

12-03-2012

I think Kennen could really use some help. With the fights being so fast paced, he runs out of energy much too quickly. Kennen cannot put out decent damage, or get 3 Marks of the Storm for his stun, if he is not able to use his abilities a bit more.

Not being able to itemize for CDR puts Kennen and some other energy based champs at a large disadvantage, imo. Many other mana-based champs are itemizing for it, and they are able to spam their abilities much faster as a result. Meanwhile, Kennen runs out of energy after 3 abilities, and then what?

I would love to be able to just itemize for some energy, but there aren't any such items.


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ricedream5

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Fury decay/generation rate needs to be looked at, but there's more issues with the champions than just fury. I don't think it'll make Trynd/Renekton that great even if fury didn't decay at all.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orphane View Post
Shen, Zed, Shyvana, and Renekton mostly. Kennen sucks but for different reasons.
Kennen stopped sucking when they rereleased Zhonya's Ring and renamed it Wooglet's Witchcap. Don't you remember Zhonya's/Rylai's Kennen? It was horrible.


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Rikukun

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orphane View Post
Shen, Zed, Shyvana, and Renekton mostly. Kennen sucks but for different reasons.
I agree with this for the most part, although I do like shen. I could see him getting maybe a little love though.


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CragBlade

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Renekton and Trynd have fury decay, which makes it really hard for them to do well on Dominion.


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FDru

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntRhino View Post
Renekton and Trynd have fury decay, which makes it really hard for them to do well on Dominion.
This. Unless you go bot lane you basically never have empowered abilities when playing Renekton; it's awful. Removing fury/rage decay might help but I'm not sure by how much. Renekton will still fall off like a brick and Tryn still has to deal with everybody building Frozen Hearts.

Balancing the energy champs will probably be a lot harder... of them, the only one I consider truly weak is Kennen, who runs out of energy instantly while every other mage just keeps on spamming forever with their infinite mana. Akali is extremely easy to shut down and is only a threat to squishies (you don't see squishies basically ever in high end play, so she has nothing to do; this might be different in entry level Dom). Shen has energy issues but still manages to be a good pick and is going to be way too strong if he gets buffs. Lee Sin is already absurdly OP (albeit with a high skill requirement). Zed is too new to make a good judgement call, IMO.

I don't know what to say about Shyvana... she doesn't even use her rage as a resource, it's more just deciding the cooldown of her ultimate, and it doesn't decay. She's also very OP on TT, so what can you do that wouldn't just break her more there?


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Evelynn Butt

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Senior Member

12-03-2012

I think Shyvana's irrelevance in Dominion is based far more on her skillset than her resource. Not much point in a bruiser without CC.


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ElevenOfClubs

Senior Member

12-03-2012

I can't comment on Akali, or Kennen as I neither play as or against them often enough.

Zed is just silly weak, especially at my ELO. Other assassains have higher burst with better poke and pushing power and better survivability in team fights (although they might not have his theoretically long range). The fact that he's limited by energy certainly doesn't help.

Lee Sin is fine. He has enough energy recovery mechanics that with smart play he continuously contribute at all stages of the game.

Shen needs help, specifically in the energy department. You need your abilities to contribute meaningfully to fights, but they spend more time off cd but with insufficient energy to cast than they do on cd. I mean he barely has enough max energy to give one full rotation of his skills, and a missed taunt is a complete and immedate death sentence.

They've nerfed Tryndemere since I played him, but he did okay if he's tanky/ignored enough to build up rage without being killed. When I play him (which is not often b/c I'm bad at melee carry), I run a high crit chance rune page (9 yellows and 2 reds), which lets you build up rage quickly enough if you live long enough. I think he might be solvable with some good tank/crit items (atmas doesn't work), but again, I'm working with impressions coming from an old patch.

Renekton works out being suboptimal, but still playable (assuming your good with his mechanics) because he isn't as reliant on range for decent AA damage and survivability as Trynd; but I play him more as a tank/bruiser than pure bruiser (if that makes sense).

I felt Shyvana did alright (suboptimal, but playable), especially in the rage department. She's not super reliant on her ult, and scales so well with attack speed that she can function as she is. Her real problem is she doesn't have any way to turn her strong farming power into a meaningful advantage because how vulnerable she is to being simultaneously harassed out of lane and outpushed by any decent AoE bot laner.

tl;dr Shen needs serious help, Tryndamere, Renekton, Shyvana need small buffs to be competitive and Lee Sin is fine.


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hoihoi8

Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnivaL View Post
One point to bear in mind is the cost of energy runes that prevents most people from considering them when they very well may be the solution.
Tell me about it... It's over 25K IP to get a full energy page. Tooks me months to get that playing daily. Now that I have it, with Shen I can alternate between 2 skills (Q/E or Q/W) without running out of energy. It seems balanced now with the full page for him. That being said, I'm missing out on lot's of defensive rune buffs just to use my skills.


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Nyx87

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Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Akali -- No problem here.

Kennen -- Kennen's Energy usage feels balanced for this map. He can run out of Energy if he spams, but not if he paces his skills like he's intended to. His other numbers are a bit low, though. We both know he won't be buffed on his other numbers due to his strength on SR though, so he could stand to get an Energy increase.

Lee Sin -- No problem here.

Renekton -- He's strong at low level but has bad scaling and earlygame is over very quickly on Dominion. Maybe if he gained bonus Fury scaling by his champion level somehow, he'd be more viable here.

Shen -- Runs out of energy way too quickly in a fight. Even when "pacing" his skills he still falls quickly behind other tanks, in both damage and mitigation. Doesn't scale terribly well either. If he had more Energy, he'd be able to run the combos a lot more as necessary for this mode.

Shyvana -- The most viable of the 3 Fury champs, but that's not saying much as she won't be able to ult often even if she is bottom lane for more minions to punch. Like Tryndamere, I'd recommend double Fury on champion hits. She's severely lacking in top lane but is not unplayable.

Tryndamere -- I think if he gained double Fury on champion hits he'd be on par with other melees. Maybe a longer delay before it starts depleting, too. One of the worst champs on the map atm, you're basically punished if you try to go into a fight with 0 Fury but you have nothing to build it up on beforehand. He's a bit of a catch-22 as well, where you need crit chance to get fast fury, which grants crit chance itself, so you don't want more than 70%, which you probably already have from PD and IE and EC but still want more AS to make fury generation faster... yeah.

Zed -- Zed just runs out of energy instantly, can never have enough for the intended W and R jukes, and is often killed during his ult because he can't do anything. And that's not even going into his long CDs either. Poor guy is just really underpowered. I like his kit a lot, though.



Overall I think you could address Energy and Fury issues through the Crystal Scar Aura. The Fury is easy enough to address because all 3 Fury champs are underpowered due to bad scaling on it as a resource, but Energy might take a bit more thought as Akali and Lee Sin are fairly strong already.
This pretty much describes it all.

Akali and Lee Sin are fine.

Kennen has damage issues, so he spams to make up for this, then runs out of energy spamming.

Shen is and always has been clunky since his nerfs long ago, he gets really punished for trying to do what other tanks can do better.

Renekton only uses rage abilities when his ult is up, because that is the only reliable time he can build fury. The decay really hurts him.

Shyvana builds fury over time so she isn't that bad when it comes to her resources, but her kit is just naturally weak because of how kitable it is.

Tryndamere suffers from a similar issue that Renekton has and that it is incredibly difficult to build fury. Also, Frozen heart being so incredibly strong.

Zed, poor Zed. I got this guy, played a game with him then refunded him. Long CDs+Energy Issues+Low damage outside of his Ult make him atrocious to play.