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Riot; If I showed you that your Trynd remake was bad, would you change it?

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Sessamo

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Do you think it would make Trynd easier to balance if he weren't so tied to RNG? It seems like whenever a champion uses crit in laning phase, they're always in a bad spot.


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Norak

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Sessamo:
Do you think it would make Trynd easier to balance if he weren't so tied to RNG? It seems like whenever a champion uses crit in laning phase, they're always in a bad spot.

I think he would be better if he didn't rely on crits in lane. With the fury changes he stacks up to get crit chance, and that means he has to build up fury and hope for crits. He can either crit 3 times in a row and win in stupid situations, or never crit and lose a won fight.

When it was based on his hp, he stacked up his Q to win trades through sheer damage. That's what it should be. The crit chance is a cool part of his kit.


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Hellsaw

Senior Member

12-26-2012

bump


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MarineRevenge

Senior Member

12-26-2012

2k Tryndamere Main Here.

All the suggested changes are okay I guess, but the nerf to his heal is pretty strong. I understand the concern is 'dont make it too good or people will whine and he will snowball too hard' or whatever.

Fury should stay 100, no reason to nerf the base amounts + heal per fury AND his fury pool. I agree with swapping the AD/Crit chance stats around like to how he used to have it, he felt stronger then.

The thing I want back more than anything else... is critical strike damage. That's what really made Tryndamere who he was, and i've missed it ever since it's removal. The only big gripe I have outside the Q change is 20 base damage on spinning slash at rank 1 is simply too low. It needs to stay 70 (perhaps lowered to 60 if it must be lowered) because half of trynds presence level 1-2 is his spinning slashes damage, making it magic helps early-game (not late game) but only if it stays a respectable number at lower ranks. Late game you build arpen so having it physical based would actually be better later on, so making it magic but reducing the damage is actually a nerf to AD trynd quite a bit.

tl;dr

His sustain sucks already, I can see lowering the raw heal amount since his cooldowns will be lower so he can heal more often, but leave his fury pool alone, it's in a good spot. No reason to reduce all of his healing numbers.. Don't nerf spinning slashes damage so significantly at rank 1 either, it's simply too much of a nerf to ad trynd. (explained in detail above).

And lastly, give him back his critical damage steroid.


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Gløry

Senior Member

12-26-2012

Quote:
Morello:
A little shorter on time right now, but I will agree there's lower synergy than there should be - I'd strike that to my biggest point of problem with the kit...well, outside of "melee carries as a role"

Synergy is tricky because synergy is fun and intuitive, but if you overdo it, it removes decisions and creates facerolling. I don't think Trynd is at risk here, just something to remember when analyzing how much synergy a character has.

Good post.


So...no, then. ok.


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Norak

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
MarineRevenge:
2k Tryndamere Main Here.

All the suggested changes are okay I guess, but the nerf to his heal is pretty strong. I understand the concern is 'dont make it too good or people will whine and he will snowball too hard' or whatever.

Fury should stay 100, no reason to nerf the base amounts + heal per fury AND his fury pool. I agree with swapping the AD/Crit chance stats around like to how he used to have it, he felt stronger then.

The thing I want back more than anything else... is critical strike damage. That's what really made Tryndamere who he was, and i've missed it ever since it's removal. The only big gripe I have outside the Q change is 20 base damage on spinning slash at rank 1 is simply too low. It needs to stay 70 (perhaps lowered to 60 if it must be lowered) because half of trynds presence level 1-2 is his spinning slashes damage, making it magic helps early-game (not late game) but only if it stays a respectable number at lower ranks. Late game you build arpen so having it physical based would actually be better later on, so making it magic but reducing the damage is actually a nerf to AD trynd quite a bit.

tl;dr

His sustain sucks already, I can see lowering the raw heal amount since his cooldowns will be lower so he can heal more often, but leave his fury pool alone, it's in a good spot. No reason to reduce all of his healing numbers.. Don't nerf spinning slashes damage so significantly at rank 1 either, it's simply too much of a nerf to ad trynd. (explained in detail above).

And lastly, give him back his critical damage steroid.

You're not seeing the changes as a whole, you're only looking at certain parts of it, and specifically some of the bad parts.

By reducing the max fury, it means you reach that max fury faster. Giving the same AD bonuses at a faster rate, the only drawback is the slightly reduced heal, which is necessary if we are to reduce the cooldown and increase the "stack rate". What you're forgetting is that old Trynd has HP costs on his W and E, that made him deal true damage to himself when he harassed. That's why some of the numbers are staying lower, otherwise he would be in his exact old state minus the HP costs, and we both know that would be broken.

His spinning flash gets a decent damage upgrade with the fact that it works off total AD, instead of bonus, and if you're talking about the change where it works off of total AD, then you're forgetting the fact that means that the power of his AD runes, masteries, Q and any AD items is doubled. Too much power on spin would make him a spindamere God.

Yes making it magic damage is a buff to it's damage early and a nerf to it's damage late, but when do you ever use spin to deal damage late game? You're using it max range most of the time to just position yourself. Also, it makes farming with it a lot easier as creeps have a lot more natural armor than MR, big win for Trynd. Plus, making his whole kit physical damage makes him like Riven; stack armor and win against him.

[EDIT] What I'm getting at here is that it seems you're being really biased. You're looking at these buffs and nerfs which I did the math for to make sure they balanced each other out, keeping Trynd in a balanced state (not pushing him too far into powerful, or further into bad) and saying "we shouldn't have those nerfs there".

Honestly, I take your opinion seriously, but take a look at the numbers. Do some quick math (or if you really don't want to/aren't proficient at it, then ask me and I'll gladly put a mini wall of text for you) and you'll see that it reducing the max fury and spin damage are not only necessary, but in their own ways buffs.


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Lastbeliever

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Quote:
Morello:
A little shorter on time right now, but I will agree there's lower synergy than there should be - I'd strike that to my biggest point of problem with the kit...well, outside of "melee carries as a role"

Synergy is tricky because synergy is fun and intuitive, but if you overdo it, it removes decisions and creates facerolling. I don't think Trynd is at risk here, just something to remember when analyzing how much synergy a character has.

Good post.


In MTG, the term "faceroll" is replaced with "linearity". I think that fits well here and is a term that should be used on these forums more.


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OJFrost

Senior Member

12-27-2012

bump for winz


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Dremiist

Senior Member

12-27-2012

I miss his critical damage it was the only reason i played trynd with crit dmg runes. trynd/shaco


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Norak

Senior Member

12-27-2012

Bump