Tanks, Madreds Bloodrazor and more....

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ShaIom

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Senior Member

11-30-2012

I just played a game and no matter how much we outplayed the enemy team they were gonna win no matter what. They had Garen, Mundo and Singed and pretty much if you can't win by 15 minutes then the game is over. We had no chance late game and the game just became stupid as all that mattered was how tanky you could be not how skillful you are. Why take out Madreds Bloodrazors only to allow tanks like Singed still roam free in the game? Not saying to disable the champ but make some type of item rather than blade of the king that only does % of current health. Also, why have Blackfire Torch provide so many stats for a relatively low price and do % of MAXIMUM health? It doesn't make sense. Full tank comps dominate the 3v3 ladders. Really need some focus in this area of the beta.


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NinetyNineTails

Member

11-30-2012

Madred's Bloodrazor is bad. It doesn't counter anybody. It's less gold efficient than just getting Trinity or IE, even against the targets that you'd think it would be good against.

Also, Blackfire Torch is getting nerfed into the ground next patch. As well it should be.


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Varxtis

Senior Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinetyNineTails View Post
Madred's Bloodrazor is bad. It doesn't counter anybody. It's less gold efficient than just getting Trinity or IE, even against the targets that you'd think it would be good against.

Also, Blackfire Torch is getting nerfed into the ground next patch. As well it should be.

attack speed portion : 1000 gold
ad portion : 1640
defense portion : approx 450

total cost = 3090 gold of efficiency..

Now passive would be worth 3800 - 3090 = 710.. Is the passive worth 710 to be cost efficient? Lets find out!

Lets use a 2k hp champion as an example, as this is around the health everyone has when you obtain madreds.

0.04 x 2000 = 80

Aprox damage of madreds on 2k hp :80 damage

Now whats the efficiency of this 80 damage? Well if we consider the fact that wits end gives aprox 40 for 600-700 gold.. Then we can consider that the passive is at least worth 1200-1400 gold.


Final conclusion:
3090 = 1300 = 4390 4390 - 3800 = 590 cost efficiency

P.S Trinity and Madreds seem to be equal in cost efficiency once madreds attacks someone around 3 to 4k hp or so.


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Phourc

Senior Member

11-30-2012

Consider that AD scales in multiple directions, growing stronger for each point of attackspeed, penetration, crit and crit strength (aka, IE) - and benefiting in kind from lifesteal.

In comparison, magic damage onhit only increases with your MPen and attackspeed - and as an autoattacker, you're not really going to build MPen, are you? Oh, and it doesn't help your life steal keep you alive.

So your nifty 80 damage per swing is going to be probably 40 or less actual damage - due to MR, lack of pen, etc. ...

In most cases you could have just bought a BF sword and a Zeal and come out ahead, both in gold spent and damage/lifesteal done.


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Varxtis

Senior Member

12-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phourc View Post
Consider that AD scales in multiple directions, growing stronger for each point of attackspeed, penetration, crit and crit strength (aka, IE) - and benefiting in kind from lifesteal.

In comparison, magic damage onhit only increases with your MPen and attackspeed - and as an autoattacker, you're not really going to build MPen, are you? Oh, and it doesn't help your life steal keep you alive.

So your nifty 80 damage per swing is going to be probably 40 or less actual damage - due to MR, lack of pen, etc. ...

In most cases you could have just bought a BF sword and a Zeal and come out ahead, both in gold spent and damage/lifesteal done.
I hear this answer a lot. What you have to understand though is that people generally build armor more than mr. So that nifty 80 ad you get from an ad item will probably be cut to around 30 (considering that people generally have 1.5 times more armor than mr) or less..

So what does this mean in the whole grand scale of things? If someone is stacking armor, Madreds is probably the way to go, if they are stacking mr then typical ad is the way to go. Don't forget Madreds also gives 40 ad (which is 10 more than trinity). I also compared the efficiency with wits end; If you think wits end passive is super efficient ( which I personally do) In relation this would mean madreds is more efficient than i initially stated/calculated.

You are right though when it comes to the fact that ad is more flexible with build options (crit, lifesteal, etc..) but i wouldn't say on hit is crappy just because of that, since you do gain a lot more damage output for your money : (If you compare the fact that to get 80 ad you need around 3200 gold, while to get 80 magic damage you need around 1400 gold)


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Koldheartedjsp

Senior Member

12-01-2012

Blade of the ruined king is insanely good. Way better than madreds.


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Bobinatorlol

Senior Member

12-01-2012

And it didn't help that you were 1-11 as AD teemo VS mundo singed garen.


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Infirc

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Senior Member

12-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaIom View Post
I just played a game and no matter how much we outplayed the enemy team they were gonna win no matter what. They had Garen, Mundo and Singed and pretty much if you can't win by 15 minutes then the game is over. We had no chance late game and the game just became stupid as all that mattered was how tanky you could be not how skillful you are. Why take out Madreds Bloodrazors only to allow tanks like Singed still roam free in the game? Not saying to disable the champ but make some type of item rather than blade of the king that only does % of current health. Also, why have Blackfire Torch provide so many stats for a relatively low price and do % of MAXIMUM health? It doesn't make sense. Full tank comps dominate the 3v3 ladders. Really need some focus in this area of the beta.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA complaining about why BFT provides so many stas for a low price when Pillager exists cost 500 gold less and gives more stats than BFT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAH


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ShaIom

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Senior Member

12-01-2012

i was 1/11 because it was seriously unbearable. It's 3 tanks with regen, infinite hp, armor and MR and movement speed buffs. It's impossible to live.


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Lorthix

Senior Member

12-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaIom View Post
i was 1/11 because it was seriously unbearable. It's 3 tanks with regen, infinite hp, armor and MR and movement speed buffs. It's impossible to live.
Most successful teams have three tanks who build tanky. You chose Teemo, and got wrecked, it happens. Blade of the Ruined King is significantly better than Bloodrazor in everyway. Blackfire Torch does percentage of maximum health because it was doing of current health and no one used it because it wasn't worth the cost.

As to the "all that mattered was how tanky you could be not how skillful you are" they were obviously more skilled than you as well unless somehow all 11 of your deaths were in 'late game'.


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