Disappointed 3v3 player

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Findoglorian

Member

11-29-2012

So, just throwing this out there. I was playing 3v3 6-8 hrs daily before they ruined it. I tried the new map, retried 5v5, and ended up finding dominion to be the only (albeit slight) redeeming factor for LoL. Unfortunately there is nothing else to do for 8 hrs/day that is nearly as fun as TT was, and LoL is definitely not worth the $30 a month I was maintaining before 3v3 was removed... PLEASE can we have back the fun map? I understand the arguments for the merits of the new map, not here to deliberate about those. Simply stating that I find it to be much less fun. Oh, btw both of my roommates used to play with me all the time and pretty much don't play anymore either, and they both paid even more than I did, and I'm sure we weren't the only ones (Just thought I'd mention the money since that seems to be the only oppinion that players have that riot cares about).

Also, the new TT has neither shorter Queues (having played 8 hrs/day for over 7 months I averaged about 45sec queues, and during normal play hours it was below 30sec [8-10 pm CST was almost instant queues]), or game lengths (Old TT = either surrender at 15, or 45+ min game. New TT= surrender at 15, or 45+ min game [both occasionally had game lengths in between, but it usually happened when someone who should have surrendered at 15 drug the game out to 30 before losing]).


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SaintHax

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findoglorian View Post
So, just throwing this out there. I was playing 3v3 6-8 hrs daily before they ruined it.
How did they ruin it? Without that info, how are they going to fix the new map, b/c they aren't going back to the old one. They've already stated that this one is going to be worked, and the old one will be custom only games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findoglorian View Post
Simply stating that I find it to be much less fun. Oh, btw both of my roommates used to play with me all the time and pretty much don't play anymore either
Why and why? You are missing critical info.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Findoglorian View Post
Also, the new TT has neither shorter <snip> game lengths (Old TT = either surrender at 15, or 45+ min game. New TT= surrender at 15, or 45+ min game [both occasionally had game lengths in between, but it usually happened when someone who should have surrendered at 15 drug the game out to 30 before losing]).
My last 9 games (of my last 10, one wasn't a normal 3v3 game) my game lengths were: 32, 32, 21, 34, 35, 37, 37, 21, and 25 minutes. I hit about one 45m game out of 20 I play in normal solo queue.


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Findoglorian

Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintHax View Post
How did they ruin it? Without that info, how are they going to fix the new map, b/c they aren't going back to the old one.
They removed it (the new map isn't a "rework" it is a replacement [no similarity other than having two lanes...])... and maybe they would put the old one as another option if a portion of the community wasn't deriding those of us who enjoyed the old map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintHax View Post
Why and why?
Let me answer your question with a rhetorical question.Why is Football (american) more fun than Baseball? Now allow me to answer my own question. It isn't necessarily more fun. Maybe the SuperBowl has more people watch than the World Series, but should that degrade the fun baseball players have with their prefered sport? Fun is completely subjective; Its simply a matter of opinion.

As for my roommates they also pretty much quit because they shared my opinion and enjoyed the old map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintHax View Post
My last 9 games (of my last 10, one wasn't a normal 3v3 game) my game lengths were: 32, 32, 21, 34, 35, 37, 37, 21, and 25 minutes. I hit about one 45m game out of 20 I play in normal solo queue.
Maybe we are at different ELOs (me being the noob who plays tons and still never made it past 1400 on a ranked team)? IDK. But why do we need/want 30 min games anyway? (isn't there dominion for that?) Never quite got that one. Even assuming the new map does as you are saying (it might, I only tried playing it immediately following release, so things may have settled down) is that really better, or is it simply an opinion issue (thereby adding itself to the list of reasons to allow both maps)?

I agree that turtling/pulling minions onto the spawning pool to drag out pointlessly long games was annoying. So were people like LeBlanc because of blinking over walls. But doesn't removing all map vision, making it so that blinks can't get through ANY of the walls, and making nexus defense almost impossible (blinkproof wall to run around) seem a bit overboard?
I was a an aggressive solo top player who relied on ward coverage for protection. I just found out-warding opposing teams and vying for map control (similar to 5v5s) to be fun and challenging, so removing vision simply causes me to enjoy play less (yes, I know about the item actives for vision on the new items).

I don't mind people having different opinions than me, I'm just stating mine on here in the hopes that they will allow both maps to be available (mainly because I feel that their reasons for not including it are moot. 1.In their first "press statement" after the patch they stated that the old TT wouldn't even be available for custom games, and now it supposedly will; which means that Riot may be willing to cater to the players if there are enough who genuinely want the map back. 2.It wouldn't "split the 3v3 fan-base;" Those of us who would play the old map over the new one already don't play the new one).
Don't get me wrong; the new map is still more fun than DOTA/HON etc.... I just fell in love with the old TT shortly after I started playing LoL (then logged 700+ hrs on it in the next couple months), so I miss playing it when I get on anymore.

Now I am going to refer to Sams tier list to make a point about the meta-game in 3v3 play.
Notice that as of the Elise patch there are NO ranged adcs, (the role they were supposedly trying to make more viable) in the God Tier or Tier 1, and only Vayne, Ez, and Nid in tier 2 with the remainder split between tiers 3 and 4. Also all of the strong tanky DPS are still in God Tier other than Darius who warrants his own tier [Shyvana, Olaf, Mundo, Jayce, Lee Sin, Singed, Jax] (along with the same mages that were strong on the old TT [Diana and Rumble in God, and people like Zhyra LuLu Elise and Eve in tier 1]). In other words Shvana, Diana, Jax is still a pwn all team (figuratively speaking).

So to sum up my opinion (yes that's all it is, and I am not really trying to bash anyone else's, or riots' for that mater [just pleaes refrain from unnecessary hostility when you are posting a response to this. Please?])
Some of the elements I found fun were removed (dragon fights at lvl6, wards, escaping from fights, white/green/red buffs)
Some things I find annoying were added (a blink proof spawning pool wall, no realistically viable top jungle before lvl12, the jungle shrines, movement shrine mid [since Eve ganks weren't hard enough to survive before])
And no real change to the champion tier list aside from Darius finally getting his own lol (aka the "Bruiser Metagame" still exists insofar as it ever did. If anything, having no vision encourages it.)

Plus I miss team-fighting in the bot bush at lvl1

Any opposing opinions? I would love to read them (provided the posters aren't hostile 13 year olds)


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Alpha Q23

Senior Member

11-30-2012

I pretty much agree with you. People don't seem to realize that Their precious new map wouldn't feel a que time length if there were two 3v3 maps. Twisted Treeline and this new Shadow Isles. To me this new map is unfun, I can't even find my self to play dominion since that was a once in a while thing for me.


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SaintHax

Senior Member

11-30-2012

Now you've made some points. BTW, I think the new TT needs more work; it's hardly perfect and the Champion variety sucks. Also, I can tell you what makes football more fun... I'm guessing you were implying it's a "it just is" response, but I have reasons. Neither here, nor there though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findoglorian View Post
But why do we need/want 30 min games anyway? (isn't there dominion for that?) Never quite got that one.
Dominion isn't really a MOBA game. TT provides a shorter game for those of us (me) that can't risk 50m to an hour on one game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findoglorian View Post
I agree that turtling/pulling minions onto the spawning pool to drag out pointlessly long games was annoying. So were people like LeBlanc because of blinking over walls. But doesn't removing all map vision, making it so that blinks can't get through ANY of the walls, and making nexus defense almost impossible (blinkproof wall to run around) seem a bit overboard?
The Nexus wall isn't blink proof-- someone else has a thread complaining that Ez can just blink down and flash up. Ridiculous complaint, really. However, I can't follow your desires here: do you want blinking over walls ("annooying") or not? The ramp to the fountain from the Nexus is a godsend. It allows games that are over, to be over.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Findoglorian View Post
Now I am going to refer to Sams tier list to make a point about the meta-game in 3v3 play.
Notice that as of the Elise patch there are NO ranged adcs, (the role they were supposedly trying to make more viable) in the God Tier or Tier 1, and only Vayne, Ez, and Nid in tier 2 with the remainder split between tiers 3 and 4. Also all of the strong tanky DPS are still in God Tier other than Darius who warrants his own tier
Yes, this is a big issue. It's talked about in many a thread, including the one I started with my complaints about TT. I played Cait on the old TT, and won't play her on this one. Riot has said that during playtest, at some point, melee AD (bruisers) were greatly disadvantaged. We all know it's swung the other way during this Beta, and they have said they are looking into fixing it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Findoglorian View Post
Some of the elements I found fun were removed (dragon fights at lvl6, wards, escaping from fights, white/green/red buffs)
Some things I find annoying were added (a blink proof spawning pool wall, no realistically viable top jungle before lvl12, the jungle shrines, movement shrine mid [since Eve ganks weren't hard enough to survive before])
And no real change to the champion tier list aside from Darius finally getting his own lol (aka the "Bruiser Metagame" still exists insofar as it ever did. If anything, having no vision encourages it.)

Plus I miss team-fighting in the bot bush at lvl1
Well, the team-fight at the bush still happens. You just quit before it was figured out where to do it. It's now the bushes on either side of the speed buff. The speed buff has had numerous complaints, and I expect it to get removed, but I've not seen an official word.

Jungling can happen at level one (there's no top/bot anymore), but I think it's a very difficult role to play. The xp split in the duo lane seems to let you keep up with the solo lane most of the time, yet farm at will. This is broke.

The irony, I'm pretty sure they removed wards so that jungling would be possible on this smaller map. With wards, you only need to ward 1 or 2 places to know when to gank a jungler.

I personally feel that if they make the trip from top lane to bot lane take longer, increase the power on the towers, and make the xp split worth having a jungler-- the viable champion roster list will open up big time. It may not be perfect, but it'll sure help.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

11-30-2012

Regarding the lack of champion variety - let's with hold that judgment until the next patch hits. Itemization is getting flipped on it's head. Defense is getting nerfed, ranged champions and mages are getting more options, AD Casters are getting a big-ticket item.

It's going to be a very different game across all modes after next week. Bruisers may be the least of our worries.

That aside, I appreciate the feedback you've written up here. This is much more conversational than the drooling rage in some other threads...

Quote:
I was a an aggressive solo top player who relied on ward coverage for protection. I just found out-warding opposing teams and vying for map control (similar to 5v5s) to be fun and challenging, so removing vision simply causes me to enjoy play less (yes, I know about the item actives for vision on the new items).
I really don't understand the concept of 'out-warding' teams. The act of purchasing and placing a stationary ward that lasts for an extended duration is really nothing to write home about. I find it much more satisfying to drop active vision, such as Hawkshot, Cairvoyance, or Grez's Lantern and catching a team with their pants down than relying on a passive ward that I stuck in a bush, in a high-traffic area I know someone will come through eventually. Good map awareness in general is far more valuable than warding. Your team can still scout, invade, and maintain map control by laning effectively and timing pushes. I don't think the 'goal' has changed, but the strategy to do so has been altered to be more active than passive. That's a good thing, in my opinion.


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Bobinatorlol

Senior Member

11-30-2012

I am basically the complete opposite in experiences with the old and new TT to the OP. I tried the old TT on several different occasions and never enjoyed it. I even leveled up a friends account in order for him to play 3's ranked with me and another. We were all excited to get competitive in 3's until we got bored of it 10-15 games in. We all felt that the map was too large and that the jungle was awkward and clunky. Some of the popular strats were to drag out the game and a lot of long good games were won by people flashing to the nexus. We were noticing the same champs being picked. And that champs who were able to hop over walls were annoying and if they were good, unkillable with certain teams.

One guy quit and me and the other went back to SR. Never touching TT again. I quit/took a break shortly before the new remake came out. I grew tired of the people I would get in solo ranked and noticed after raising ~500 elo in a short amount of time that nothing changes. You still deal with complete morons and cry babies in solo queue. I stopped playing for 4-5 months and got back to it about 2 months ago. First thing I did was play the new TT and fell in love with it. I now play TT only and for about 4-5 hours a day.

The new map is quick and has a lot of action right from the start. This is partially due to its size and lack of wards, which I enjoy. The map not having wards means people need to communicate and always keep an eye on the mini map. Having a SC & SC2 background this is something I haven't really had a problem with. Also having played WoW for years and, for the most part only arenas, I know how to communicate and why it is important. Wards allow crappy players the ability to get away with not looking at the map to see who is where and allows champs the ability to over extend safely. I'm not all that sure why people want them that bad on this map anyways. When someone is MIA its not like they have all that many places to be.

I do not like Tier list because people hold on to them like it is the holy grail for picking who to play. I hope you are sitting for this next bit but. What if I told you Sam, the guy who created the list, does not only play top tier champs in ranked. I know crazy right? What if I went one further. What if I told you that player skill and team synergy is much more important than picking a god tier champ. I'm sure your mind has been blown... The god tier is just pub stompers, and many of them see no bans in ranked, low or high elo. This is nothing new, even SR has pub stompers.

Its not that ADC cant do well on this map it is just that this map caters to early-mid game champs and that is usually NOT a ADC's thing. With that said when I started on the new TT I only played graves and did really well with him, something like a 75%+ win rate. They can and do get played. SR sees the same thing with melee bruisers. If a bruiser does not have a (good) gap closer or escape along with a kit that allows them survive burst you rarely see them played unless they can jungle. Even then they are typically just farmers hoping for a late game.

I am not even going to touch on the topic of buying RP. Saying I use to and now I'm not because of this or that change seems childish to me.

Most of the complaints from the people who want the old TT back are bad, IMO. Hell most of the time the same exact problem was in the old TT. Also, not to bash on anyone because I'm not even that great of a player, but I have noticed that the majority of the complainers are not what I would label a good MOBA player. A lot of them, judging from their match history, stick to co-op or proving grounds. And an overwhelming number of them have negative kill to death ratios in whatever it is they play dam near every game.

If people do not like the map they should come with a legitimate reason with a legitimate way to fix this issue on the NEW TT. Or at best try to discuss it with other summoners. Instead of the constant **** like "Altars make the new TT exactly like Dominion hur dur bring back old TT".

TL;DR- I like the new TT and other people do as well. If you want changes to occur voice them because the map is still in beta. Stop whining about the old TT it is gone.


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Noobtactical

Senior Member

11-30-2012

I like the new map better myself. Gameplay is faster, games are quicker paced, no more wasting money on wards, jungle is improved.

It's all good


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teh d wreck

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Senior Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintHax View Post
Now you've made some points. BTW, I think the new TT needs more work; it's hardly perfect and the Champion variety sucks. Also, I can tell you what makes football more fun... I'm guessing you were implying it's a &quot;it just is&quot; response, but I have reasons. Neither here, nor there though.



Dominion isn't really a MOBA game. TT provides a shorter game for those of us (me) that can't risk 50m to an hour on one game.



The Nexus wall isn't blink proof-- someone else has a thread complaining that Ez can just blink down and flash up. Ridiculous complaint, really. However, I can't follow your desires here: do you want blinking over walls (&quot;annooying&quot;) or not? The ramp to the fountain from the Nexus is a godsend. It allows games that are over, to be over.




Yes, this is a big issue. It's talked about in many a thread, including the one I started with my complaints about TT. I played Cait on the old TT, and won't play her on this one. Riot has said that during playtest, at some point, melee AD (bruisers) were greatly disadvantaged. We all know it's swung the other way during this Beta, and they have said they are looking into fixing it.




.
Well, the team-fight at the bush still happens. You just quit before it was figured out where to do it. It's now the bushes on either side of the speed buff. The speed buff has had numerous complaints, and I expect it to get removed, but I've not seen an official word.

Jungling can happen at level one (there's no top/bot anymore), but I think it's a very difficult role to play. The xp split in the duo lane seems to let you keep up with the solo lane most of the time, yet farm at will. This is broke.

The irony, I'm pretty sure they removed wards so that jungling would be possible on this smaller map. With wards, you only need to ward 1 or 2 places to know when to gank a jungler.

I personally feel that if they make the trip from top lane to bot lane take longer, increase the power on the towers, and make the xp split worth having a jungler-- the viable champion roster list will open up big time. It may not be perfect, but it'll sure help.
I wish I could upvote this more than once. Good post.


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Eryn

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Senior Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by findoglorian View Post
plus i miss team-fighting in the bot bush at lvl1
NEw mAP RUInEd!


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