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Why is Riot afraid of creating new unique playstyles, unique champions ?

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BestBilbo

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Please read the thread before judging, otherwise feel free to ignore.

Concerning champion-design, I personally feel Riot has dropped the ball somewhere. A few champion releases have been awesome, new and exciting. Though I believe they could have gone far further with some champion concepts.


Quote:
Enai Siaion:
Riot seems to have chickened out of making champions that require UNIQUE TACTICS.

Old Sivir the hyperpusher, Heimerdinger the walking bunker rush, Poppy who farms champions instead of creeps, Xerath and his intended design goal of standing two screens away behind a wall in siege mode.
These champions require(d) a unique approach to the game.

Then Riot decided to change gears and make champions with UNIQUE SKILLSHOTS instead but performing the exact same role as others in their class.

Syndra, Ziggs? Yeah, I know, I know.
Hard to hit enemies, but in the end they are still the same AP mid as most other AP mids.

Ziggs and Syndra are both mid lane AP with pretty much the same build, decent damage and minimal cc.
The fact that one has bombs and the other has balls is irrelevant because this only affects how they do their role, not what their role is.

This is why champions feel so stale. Instead of enabling new tactics and new approaches to the game, all they provide is a new skillshot to learn, if that.
Some are even purely strategic picks and their gameplay doesn't matter - the only reason why Darius exists is because he "is a bruiser that dunks bruisers", not because he actually adds new tactics to the game.



Quote:
Firellius:
Riot doesn't like extreme designs. I think they're of the opinion that it complicates the game too much for new players to learn.



Then what about the Season 3 Item-Overhaul ?

New items are added, different item-paths, item costs, and most importantly: New/unfamiliar item effects, wether these are active or passive effects.
They have an impact on the game and are a must to know what these are.

Is the item-overhaul a burden of knowledge to (new) players, is it anti-fun ? Or is it a much desired change that will add more variety and diversity among items, yet WILL make the game more complex.

The item-overhaul is great, it adds variety and diversity, yet it WILL make the game more complex, and that's completely fine.
The patch is going to be awesome and I am very excited, if only they could make such drastic changes concerning champion design aswell. Why not Riot ?



Quote:
tehdef:
I've asked this question in the past, and I was met with a resounding no, by a red in a personal email to a key member of the design team. It's fine, I get it. But sadly the current demographic of gamers are generally pretty daft as it were, and they want big reward for little effort.

Business strategy wise? I get it. It seems that Riot is favoring parity in overall design foundation over variety, complexity and diversity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phakez

Every time I read a post from Riot employee I feel like they have an in depth knowledge of champion design. A week later I get Sejuani, who is a rehashed, boring champion that brings nothing new to the game.


^ I'm aware of the fact that Sejuani is already fairly old, but I think you get the point.



Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorMcPain

Something like Xerath was a good jab at new mechanics because you tried to give people something unique - a pure siege hero with unmatched range, but in the end you got scared and didn't go through with it.

Anivia is a good design, Twisted Fate is a GREAT design. People pick Twisted Fate because of one reason: options. He's never been a super strong laner, teamfighter and whatnot, there are better pushers and even better gankers. But his ultimate is a very strong, and on top of all an unique, mechanic.

You always say that you don't want to overtune high skillcap champions because more skilled players shouldn't access higher power levels, but you never talk about options, which are generally tied to new mechanics.
This is what high skillcap champions should give you (and that's what happens in most DOTA cases) they give you similar power levels but they give you more options at the same time.



Quote:
WeltraumPenner:

Unique-champions open up the game for certain strategies.

If a character is designed this way, you can have high skill cap champions without making them stronger than others. They just provide options for their team other champions do not offer. Example: Twisted Fate


Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorMcPain

It's becoming pretty evident that Riot's design team is struggling with the hard truth that you can't create high skillcap champions without making the game more complex.


Quote:
whythisname:
Considering Xerath, his range is in fact so short that anyone with enough guts can flash towards him and burst him down in 1 rotation (Annie, Veigar, Viktor, etc.).

I think that's just sad for a champ that's supposed to have superior range.



Quote:
NoirTheBlack:


We need more champions that offer more than almost the same old ways to defeat the enemy. I think Riot should
give us more-unique-playstyle champions, not create an army of ADC clones, MAGE clones etc...

So here and now i want to ask Riot:

Stop creating CHAMPIONS, start making PLAYSTYLES.


An idea of making Xerath living artillery, being able to shoot spells through a half of map is POSSIBLE TO FIT INTO LEAGUE.
Just stop thinking schematically. I can even wait two months for the new champion to come out, because I know it will be the next clone of "Insert existing champion here".


Quote:
DD Seventh:
I read it all and I can't agree more.
Apart from a few abilites (think blitz hook, Anivia/Jarvan impassable terrain, Shen/TF/Panth ult) there are hardly no champions that have a huge impact on the game.


Why Riot, why did you stop creating unique champions/playstyles ?


Quote:
iainB85:
This is just my general assessment of the problem.
This game has the amount of champions it does NOT for gameplay's sake, but for revenues sake.

If Riot incurred profits from a different avenue (up front cost, monthly subscription, etc.), do you think we'd have over 100 champions in this game to date? I'm betting a strong no.

This is one of my major concerns with the free to play model becoming so popular these days - it forces design decisions based on what will make revenue rather than what is good for gameplay / the players playing the game.

Let's say the design team is about to release Skarner. They stop and ask themselves, "Does this champion bring anything fun/unique to the table?" -- Yes, his drag ultimate is a new idea, so they push it forward.

Flash forward to Sejuani release date and they asks themselves the same question, but this time they realize this champion adds nothing fun or unique to the game. Guess what ?

Too bad. It's time to release another champion, and nothing else is ready. Pack it, ship it, some revenue is better than none!

This kind of scenario wouldn't be an issue in a non-F2P pricing model. If it was a monthly subscription like WoW, they could simply say "Well this champion didn't work, scrap it" and only lose some time, rather than a big source of revenue.

This means that we have a TON more champions than we actually NEED to have interesting and dynamic gameplay. This also means that we will always get a bunch of "filler" champions that have absolutely nothing unique going for them in between each interesting champion.


^ If this is true, I'm officially a sad panda.


---------------------------


Thanks for reading.

PS: This is by no means a rage-thread towards Riot.

PS2:
Quote:
lolli42:
As I said there are so many great champion concepts in this forum :/
Maybe Riot could consider using ideas of their community more...


EDIT: Mixed discussion. Some people agree, some disagree.

EDIT 2: I'm not saying all recent champions were bad, alot of them are very satisfying, though some concepts could've been pushed through way more, such as the example I use for Xerath.

EDIT 3:
Quote:
NoirTheBlack:
I agree to some certain degree. I'm putting the pressure on Syndra, Xerath, etc. Champions who where meant to be unique as hell, but Riot was too afraid to push it more in that way, which currently places those champs under the average


Thank you for understanding what I'm trying to say.

People all read the title, skip on reading my post and downvote/upvote and comment immediately.

I guess it's my bad the title is a bit misleading, as it looks like im trying to say 'Riot is bad and I should make champions instead' - While I don't have the intention to sound like this, at all.

I shouldn't have included 'Unique champions' in the title, all of the recent champion releases have been unique, I primarely ask for game-changing playstyles, such as TF's ganking abilitity, Eve's invisible roaming, etcetera.

I'm sorry the title is misleading and confusing, please stop telling me I'm retarded for saying champions aren't original, I was not trying to say this.

EDIT4: Only a few hours in: Lots of views, lots of downvotes, lots of upvotes, lots of feedback. Great ! Red post could help, perhaps ?

EDIT5:

2nd and 3rd thread up aswell - Please read them and leave constuctive feedback !

Thread One: We explain why more unique playstyles could be awesome and how they are not nessecarily OP - Just different. (This thread).

Thread Two: We explain why not only we would like these more unique/dedicated playstyles, we also suggest why we might need them. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2847697)

Thread Three: We explain how more unique playstyles could be done by living up more to the original concept of the champion. We suggest tying realistic elements to abilities and then to visuals because it makes sense - It's easier for people to understand - easier to pick up. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2906523)


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Grann Brigitte

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Because new and unique is hard to balance and hard to evaluate the impact on game health for. Even if a mechanic is super cool and popular, it may detract heavily from the game by existing. See: Global ultimates


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Is there something about Elise that doesn't give her a unique playstyle? Pls explain.

Also, you pretty much posted this already. Condense your complaining.


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FlamingFrostbite

Senior Member

11-29-2012

The design process is not "Think of awesome idea, make awesome idea, place awesome idea out" and done. They have to test it see how it works with other champions/items, give it a clear counter, then on the technical stand point you have to code it and make sure it doesn't break the game. There's so much I'm sure RIOT would do if they could.


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Best Fizz EU

Senior Member

11-29-2012

This needs more +


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Healz Please

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Syndra and Ziggs may be similar in that they are both AP Mids but... Just because you can play Ziggs well doesn't mean you can play Syndra well. And you have to think about BALANCE. If one team has a champion and the other team doesn't it shouldn;t make such an impact that causes the team with the champion to dominate. And think about like... Karma. She's quite unique but is getting reworked because of the fact that she is "DIFFICULT" to use. Just because a champion is unique does not mean they are good.


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Sven the horible

Senior Member

11-29-2012

They have made unique champions...

most of them get permabanned from draft for being different


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

11-29-2012

This thread is to ask Riot why they quit making such unique playstyles and I suggest future abilities/champion concepts.

The other thread is about explaining the difference between champions and why some designs are poor + possible reworks


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Chompey

Senior Member

11-29-2012

The unique play styles can be debated, but why are you claiming Riot hasn't been making unique champions? Why are you saying that Riot doesn't listen to the community about champions they want?

They gave us a female tank, a water mage, and the spider queen. There's a big variety of champions, so I don't know what the problem is.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Quote:
Grann Brigitte:
Because new and unique is hard to balance and hard to evaluate the impact on game health for. Even if a mechanic is super cool and popular, it may detract heavily from the game by existing. See: Global ultimates


They've managed to do it succesfully with Evelyn (this took very long though), Twisted Fate and alot of others. Am I evil to ask for more ?