Why do we have supports?

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henchdog

Member

11-29-2012

@weltal - ok well it felt when I read your post the first time it felt that you were just attacking each question, and then at the end attacking my motives. I reread your post again and despite the tone, I appreciate the points you made.

Reading the responses here have made me realise that I think what is giving me a problem is the 'support' tag that some champions have. I understand the 0CS meta (I don't much like it, but I can see that it works and wins games).

I am wondering with the current 'blitzcrank/leona/zyra' bot lane whether the tag of 'support' is doing more harm than good. It seems to pigeon-hole peoples views of champions. It certainly did with me. The support 'tag' champion and the 'support' role in game get me muddled.

I am sort of aware of the S3 changes but I havent played PBE. Some of the support items look pretty exciting and useful and the increased gold flow and pickpocket look great. I'm not too keen on the sightstone thing though, but maybe i need to try it.


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Vuther

Senior Member

11-29-2012

The 0CS support and jungling is pretty stuff the players thought of. None of the factors leading into them were intentional.

The general pattern to them is always useful utility versus damage scaling. They have more of the first one at the tradeoff of less than the second one. This utility is meant to synergize with allies who actually do damage, being more useful in practice than simply two allies which do damage for whatever reason. What this utility actually is varies. It's entirely a teamwork concept, having benefits of being reliably useful when working together and tradeoffs when they are split. The game's basic mode is a 5v5 team-based game, and the supports exemplify this. Tanks have a similar and arguably even overlapping concept, but tend to have higher durability and even some damage compared to supports at the cost of being a melee champion which can make them somewhat more self-sufficient in more cases.


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Cretinok

Senior Member

11-29-2012

My problem with Supports is that the current 0 CS meta can backfire hard.

I understand the reasoning, that the ADC can use the gold more effectively, that the support's built in utility is their greatest asset.

But the problem is when you get paired with a ****** ADC. The ADC gets all the gold and has no idea what to do with it, and the Support is left babysitting his dumbass, and is so starved for gold that they cant do anything either.

In other words, a bad ADC will result in both players being useless.


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Qsario

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson5pheonix View Post
Anybody who doesn't think much of supports has obviously never AD carried with one :P
Very true. I have a friend who is an excellent Leona. I played ADC Janna with her. Yes, ADC Janna. That is to say 21/9/0 masteries, ADC runes (AD quints, ArPen marks, Armor seals, MR/lvl glyphs), and built the usual BG/IE/PD/BT/LW/GA.

You initiate with W, shield self for +AD, land an AA, drop a tornado down the escape path and let it charge, then AA until they start to flee in terror. Then you trigger the tornado if it hasn't gone off yet and kill them. You're like any other ADC, doing scary crits, one-shotting all minions, and self-supporting while you utterly destroy the unfed masses.

But 99% of the time I play support Janna and let THEM have all the gold so they can do that. I'm not there for the kills, I'm there for the win. I'll drop shields, heal, peel and whatever I have to do to keep my carries alive and doing damage. I tornado the escape routes, I predict enemy actions and ward the right places, I ping target people who are out of position and we destroy them.

Support is tons of fun, but I guess not everyone understands how awesome a good one is. I mean, ADC Janna is definitely not viable without a really awesome support. But once fed, any champion can be a terror.


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Qsario

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretinok View Post
In other words, a bad ADC will result in both players being useless.
That's not true unless the whole team is bad, in which case you should surrender. You're useful at zero gold (assuming you've got the GP10s items & runes _need_ if you're doing the 0 CS thing and hate choosing between boots and wards). You just have to accept the fact that your abilities are no longer to be used for damage and you do not waste them in a futile attempt at doing pitiful damage (feel free to autoattack though, whenever it won't screw up your positioning).

Yes, it's frustrating, but that's what duo queue/premades are for. Good ADCs make up about half of my friend list (I main support Janna). If you have CC & exhaust, though, you can often punish bad turret divers and get kills in spite of being unable to do any significant damage.

Finally, when your ADC is no good, start following the most fed person on your team around whenever possible and supporting them.


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Qsario

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by henchdog View Post
@goremote Thanks for making the effort to write such a detailed reply - i enjoyed the read and i appreciate the time you took. I enjoy watching pro -streams and I notice a much larger variety of0 CS picks lately - the last game i saw had a panth and a maokai in the support role. I am wondering if this is a trend or just preseason 'experimentation'?

@wetal8000 I may not fully understand the support role, but that doesnt mean I don't understand trolling. I hope your forum manners improve.
Maokai is an annoying tanky support. He has those damned saplings that are free wards/harass and twisted advance for initiation on top of being naturally tanky. You can sort of use the saplings against him by using them to pull the lane, but he's still a pain to deal with.


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Anachronity

Senior Member

11-29-2012

I personally don't like the idea of a mandatory support role. Support can be fun in highly organized play or while laning with a friend, but I don't think it should be such a necessary part of the meta.

The main problem I have with supporting is that most people do it because it is necessary, rather than because it is fun. If I wanted to do something that is tedious but necessary, I would go do chores rather than playing a video game. The game is the way it is because Riot has designed it that way, and I feel that any arguments in favor of the support role simply because 'someone has to do it' are flawed for that reason. Yes, someone has to do it now, but that could be changed. The question is whether it should be.

Another huge problem with supporting is lack of recognition. Because of the variety of ways a support can function, it is very hard to determine how well someone is supporting. An ADC that does his job correctly is "Godlike!", "Legendary!", and "Unstoppable!", a support that does his job correctly might get a quick "gj" from his teammates, if he's lucky. It's entirely understandable that many solo queue ADC's think little of their supports, the game does everything it can to inflate their egos. I think a large part of the problem could be solved through purely aesthetic means. Find a good way to track the performance of support champions and then the game can start praising them as "Pivotal!" or "Devious!", or as a "Mastermind!" or something similar.

Even so, supporting can be fun in a game where you know your teammates. LoL is a game that rewards teamwork and good coordination with allies and I won't try to claim that supporting is always boring/unfun. In my eyes the support role should exist, but it should be optional. Unfortunately that is a hard balance to strike.


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Cretinok

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachronity View Post
Find a good way to track the performance of support champions and then the game can start praising them as "Pivotal!" or "Devious!", or as a "Mastermind!" or something similar.
Would be very hard to track a Support's performance but some things could be done.

Allied champ is running away with a DoT on him that will kill him. Support gets a last second heal: "Denied"


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Greenlee19

Senior Member

11-29-2012

I always build some offense on my support champs I feel I personally help out more that way but I'm not much for following the meta lol


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Vuther

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretinok View Post
In other words, a bad ADC will result in both players being useless.
A bad support makes both players useless too.

One does not simply 1v2 without jungler camping.