~ [Ranked Play] Queuing, Trolls, Dodging, Wait Times, and Losing Points ~

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A1one1nDarkness

Senior Recruiter

02-07-2013

This is my own response to another thread titled "rank dodging wait time and -10 points" by WIFrenchSteeze.

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In the thread he stated the idea of having a system where once in queue you can vote out a player with three votes towards the player to kick him. This would be to minimize people arguing over positions, trolls, and people who seem to pick carelessly of what the other players are calling.

Some people say "Pick Order" as in you pick your player for a role based on what order you are put into the queue. This is an invalid way in my opinion because I have went into a queue as a duo, and been higher division then the people above me simply because I was in a duo. (I have checked their division using the search system after the game to prove this fact.) Also the first pick sometimes picks a mid which has a much greater potential to be counters as to say a support role.

Some others say "Call your roles" as in whatever role you call is what you are going to play. As this seems more efficient and beneficial to the team you have times where two or more people are saying "I'm going mid and nothing else." Why would this person ever queue up for a ranked match only having one position that they can play at at least a sub par level is beyond me, but you can't change that.

Some people say this system would be abused. Yes it might be abused some, but so is the current system. But trolls now can not only troll inside the game. They can now troll inside of the queue, making it even easier to get people to a lower division.

Example: Everyone calls their roles.
First Pick: "Top"
Second Pick: "Bottom"
Third Pick: "Mid"
Fourth Pick: "Support"
Fifth Pick: "ADC"

Everything is going perfect everyone's picking their champions. Then when it comes to the Fifth Pick, he picks Sona. Now your team is put at a very large disadvantage seeing as you have no ADC, and the player that was supposed to be ADC has picked a champion that has little damage output.

I think that this system would help because then instead of one of the players that is trying to move up in their division doesn't have to lose any points, be put out of their series, or gain a wait time. Instead the Fifth Player would gain a larger wait time like 30 minutes and lose 10 points.

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As I would prefer the system(s) that I have just stated over no system. I think that they system that I am going to stand behind the most is the one I will explain now. So if you read anything, read this.

They should implement a system where when you go to queue up for a ranked solo/duo match, you select the role(s) you wish to play. A lot of games have implemented a system like this especially many MMO's including World of Warcraft.

Example:
1. You log into league of legends.
2. You click "Play"
3. Select "PvP" > "Classic" > "Summoner's Rift (5v5)" > "Ranked Solo/Duo (Draft Pick)"
4. Select "Solo"
-OR-
4. Select "Duo" > "Invite" > "Start Game"
5. THEN A SCREEN POPS UP with 5 logos in a horizontal row. Under each logo is the words printed "Top", "Middle", "Jungle", "ADC", "Support". The logo and word will be one large button similar to the red "Play" button. And all five buttons will toggle. You will toggle all the roles that you will/want to play then click a "Confirm" button at the bottom.
6. You wait while it looks for 4 other players filling all the roles and places you into the Champions Select lobby.

So essentially you will pick your roles that you know how to play or want to play.

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In addition to the system above they could implement a second voting system to try and remove the trolls that toggle "ADC" and pick a "Support".

This system would happen inside of the Champion Select. There would be a small "Vote to Dodge" button at the bottom of the screen and a counter for both sides. Some what like the kill's totals for each team at the top of the screen when your spectating a game.

This counter will start at [ 0 | 0 ] and will increase with each time the "Vote to Dodge" button is pressed until either side reaches 4. Once 4 out of the 5 players "Vote to Dodge" the Champion Select is left, and ALL 5 players on the team, and only that team that voted to dodge receive a 20 minute wait time (Same time as it takes to vote to surrender). Giving this 20 minute wait time will reduce the amount of people dodging simply because they think the other team is "More OP" or has a much larger advantage. And giving the penalty to all 5 players, not only the 4 that voted make it so that the troll also has to wait AND makes it so that it doesn't sit at 3 votes because no one wants to be the 4th and have to wait.

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BEFORE YOU POST READ THE FAQ TO SEE IF I ALREADY ANSWERED IT.
I will try to keep this updated with any GOOD WELL WRITTEN questions asked along with the name of the user who asked it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

FAQ:

Q: Doesn't this defeat the purpose of knowing how to play all roles?
A: While this does make it so that you do not need to be knowledgeable in all roles. You still will need to learn them to move up in divisions quickly and efficiently. Just like in an MMO where the healer/tank will get a match almost instantly opposed to dps. If you chose a role that is less known or learn/toggle all the roles you will queue up much faster giving you an advantage.

Q: Can't someone just learn one champion and play them all the time?
A: Yes they could. But then they have a much larger chance to lose and stay in their division because of being countered all the time.

Q: Can't someone just abuse this the same as you said before? They can just toggle ADC and pick a support?
A: Of course. All systems can be abused in one way or another. Even the banning of players can be abused by a troll. But this will improve the game play making less trolls, and allow more people to play the game fairly. People will be much less likely to troll or throw a game in the Champion Select if they get to pick for the role they want before hand.

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Sorry for typing so much but thank you for taking the time to read my post. Please leave feedback below


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csun723

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Junior Member

02-07-2013

oh.


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ROKAF JE

Senior Member

02-07-2013

The game will never start. No low-mid elo/bad players want support, and most don't like to jungle.

I know it's in the FAQ but -
Same terrible issues as WoWs queue system. There's never a single tank or healer. Your average queue time just hit 20 minutes.

So they play Heimerdinger top and feed - what now? Your system doesn't work. It can't be bannable, Heimer is a legitimate top against a very tiny pool of champions/comps.

Also, there are champions who can play multiple roles, and unorthodox counterpicks that you wouldn't have access to if the champs have to be sorted to prevent this kind of trolling.

There shouldn't have to be such a major queue overhaul to accommodate stupidity and immaturity. The MAJORITY of games are not trolled, and if they are, it's because someone was rude to that person, or autolocked something he wanted to do instead of having a civilized discussion.

Be the better person, and let the whiners have their role. You'll move up that way.

Sidenote: My friend plays at Platinum level, and Jax only. It's hard to counter someone when they have perfect knowledge of one champion, and you have average knowledge of 30.


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angryWelchMan

Senior Member

02-07-2013

The problem is that it locks in the current meta for life. ie what happens when then right set or nerfs and buffs or a new champion makes roaming viable again? What if kill lanes with no true support become dominant again and the roles you are forced to select from are only valid half of the time. That is why queue by role doesn't work. Also would Riot then choose the pick order? some people want to go ahead and secure I good top or mid first while others want to pick safer jungler and support first to avoid counters. Ideally everyone could trade but most people i think dont have all of the champs unlocked

Secondly the vote to dodge button doesn't exist because it creates more problems then it solves. The situation goes like this. Team Captain "imma try and get amumu and not ban him" they first pick amumu "alright everyone vote dodge" or even "oh shoot they have a much better team comp then us, everyone vote dodge" or "man i really wanted to play vieger but they picked him first, everyone vote dodge or I troll" or haha imma behave in champ select and just troll i game
All but the last of the problems could be solved by giving a timer to vote dodge before the first champion is banned but then the troll would just hold off for 20 seconds and everyone has wasted their time.

tldr; while it is good that you tried to solve a problem, or solution creates greater problems while only slightly detering the original problem.


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A1one1nDarkness

Senior Recruiter

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROKAF JE View Post
The game will never start. No low-mid elo/bad players want support.

I know it's in the FAQ but -
Same terrible issues as WoWs queue system. There's never a single tank or healer. Your average queue time just hit 20 minutes.

So they play Heimerdinger top and feed - what now? Your system doesn't work. It can't be bannable, Heimer is a legitimate top against a very tiny pool of champions/comps.

Also, there are champions who can play multiple roles, and unorthodox counterpicks that you wouldn't have access to if the champs have to be sorted to prevent this kind of trolling.

There shouldn't have to be such a major queue overhaul to accommodate stupidity and immaturity.

Be the better person, and let the whiners have their role. You'll move up that way.

Sidenote: My friend plays at Platinum level, and Jax only. It's hard to counter someone when they have perfect knowledge of one champion, and you have average knowledge of 30.
I appreciate the feedback. I understand some roles like support will give you an almost insta queue and mid will take the longest (at least at my level). But that will encourage people to learn support. And if people really want to move up they WILL start to learn roles like that making them better players.

And you CAN choose unorthodox counterpicks. If you choose "Top", and your trying to counter a champion top by picking Heimerdinger that is your choice. That is why it should take 4 votes to dodge not 3. Because IF Heimerdinger is a counter to their top I'm sure at least one other player will agree with you and not vote to dodge.

And I do try to be the better person and let the whiners get the roles they want. The only problem is sometimes you have 3 people who want mid, and neither of them will be the better person even if I am. And I cannot control the actions of my teammates so if two OTHER people besides me want to go jungle. I can't say okay I'll go top both of you can jungle. Then I'm put in the situation of looking everyone up on lolking and trying to convince one of them to play a different role before time runs out for them to pick.

And its great that your friend is Platinum and plays Jax. I probably never will be Platinum, and I'm not saying the current system sucks. I have already moved up two divisions since the release of the new system. I am only trying to IMPROVE the current system and make things go a lot more smoothly for the Champion Select since that seems to be where the largest problems are for me right now.


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A1one1nDarkness

Senior Recruiter

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by angryWelchMan View Post
The problem is that it locks in the current meta for life. ie what happens when then right set or nerfs and buffs or a new champion makes roaming viable again? What if kill lanes with no true support become dominant again and the roles you are forced to select from are only valid half of the time. That is why queue by role doesn't work. Also would Riot then choose the pick order? some people want to go ahead and secure I good top or mid first while others want to pick safer jungler and support first to avoid counters. Ideally everyone could trade but most people i think dont have all of the champs unlocked

Secondly the vote to dodge button doesn't exist because it creates more problems then it solves. The situation goes like this. Team Captain "imma try and get amumu and not ban him" they first pick amumu "alright everyone vote dodge" or even "oh shoot they have a much better team comp then us, everyone vote dodge" or "man i really wanted to play vieger but they picked him first, everyone vote dodge or I troll" or haha imma behave in champ select and just troll i game
All but the last of the problems could be solved by giving a timer to vote dodge before the first champion is banned but then the troll would just hold off for 20 seconds and everyone has wasted their time.

tldr; while it is good that you tried to solve a problem, or solution creates greater problems while only slightly detering the original problem.
I tried to cover the first part in my other comment a minute ago. But basically if you want to do a kill lane or roam, then just pick Support or all the roles. Then pick your champion you want to run the kill lane with and/or roam with. Just because you choose support doesn't mean you have to pick one. It just means that, that's the spot that you will be playing, but do whatever you want with that spot. Just like if in an MMO you select to queue as Tank but have no armor and all damage items. Just because you pick a role doesn't necessarily mean you have to play that role by the book.

And I agree with the second part. That's why I thought of trying to put in some sort of 5 minute wait system. I haven't thought up of yet how to exactly how to get around the "Alright everyone dodge because they picked Amumu" problem. But also you need 4 votes so it minimizes it happening as often as with 3 people. Plus all systems have problems, you just have to try to fix them the best you can. Like even now if the other team gets someone like Amumu people say "SOMEONE DODGE OR I'M GOING AFK!". Where at least then you could actually dodge instead of dealing with the person going AFK. And if really necessary you could even try to make it so that its something like if you vote to dodge and successfully do 2,3,4+ games in a row you receive a VERY long wait or lose points or something. But we'll see how much more feedback I receive and what other people think. Thanks for the constructive feedback though

EDIT: Actually I changed it. I made the wait 20 minutes instead of 5 minutes. This defeats the purpose of going AFK/Trolling over a champion some. Because either you can play against Amumu for 20 minutes and lose and surrender; or you can win. Its still not a perfect system but it helps with the 20 minute wait, and no system is perfect.


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angryWelchMan

Senior Member

02-07-2013

The kill lane and roam are just examples what if the meta devolops with two junglers one blue dependent and one red dependent. or counter junglers running along side a normal jungler with just a support bot and adc mid. Riot would then be forced to add more buttons and thus condone certain strategies. This would lead to anyone trying to imedeitly implement something they saw the pro do or try to get people along for something new to be mocked and reported cause "obviously it doesn't work or riot would add those buttons"

So under your system if i get a troll i can vote to dodge and then wait 20 minutes to re queue or just play for 20 minutes and try to pull it out and if not just surrender?

Im not trying to be adversarial just pointing out flaws I see in your proposal


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KnightxSScarlett

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Your system assumes that the players want to play by the meta, when in reality that's not necessarily true. Riot shouldn't tell the players what they HAVE to play. Sure they can decide in champ select what they're going to do, but you just drove their queue times up for no apparent reason.

tl;dr: Let players pick what they want to play, it's not Riot's job to tell you how to play.


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Redweb

Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by A1one1nDarkness View Post
This is my own response to another thread titled "rank dodging wait time and -10 points" by WIFrenchSteeze.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the thread he stated the idea of having a system where once in queue you can vote out a player with three votes towards the player to kick him. This would be to minimize people arguing over positions, trolls, and people who seem to pick carelessly of what the other players are calling.

Some people say "Pick Order" as in you pick your player for a role based on what order you are put into the queue. This is an invalid way in my opinion because I have went into a queue as a duo, and been higher division then the people above me simply because I was in a duo. (I have checked their division using the search system after the game to prove this fact.) Also the first pick sometimes picks a mid which has a much greater potential to be counters as to say a support role.

Some others say "Call your roles" as in whatever role you call is what you are going to play. As this seems more efficient and beneficial to the team you have times where two or more people are saying "I'm going mid and nothing else." Why would this person ever queue up for a ranked match only having one position that they can play at at least a sub par level is beyond me, but you can't change that.

Some people say this system would be abused. Yes it might be abused some, but so is the current system. But trolls now can not only troll inside the game. They can now troll inside of the queue, making it even easier to get people to a lower division.

Example: Everyone calls their roles.
First Pick: "Top"
Second Pick: "Bottom"
Third Pick: "Mid"
Fourth Pick: "Support"
Fifth Pick: "ADC"

Everything is going perfect everyone's picking their champions. Then when it comes to the Fifth Pick, he picks Sona. Now your team is put at a very large disadvantage seeing as you have no ADC, and the player that was supposed to be ADC has picked a champion that has little damage output.

I think that this system would help because then instead of one of the players that is trying to move up in their division doesn't have to lose any points, be put out of their series, or gain a wait time. Instead the Fifth Player would gain a larger wait time like 30 minutes and lose 10 points.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I would prefer the system(s) that I have just stated over no system. I think that they system that I am going to stand behind the most is the one I will explain now. So if you read anything, read this.

They should implement a system where when you go to queue up for a ranked solo/duo match, you select the role(s) you wish to play. A lot of games have implemented a system like this especially many MMO's including World of Warcraft.

Example:
1. You log into league of legends.
2. You click "Play"
3. Select "PvP" > "Classic" > "Summoner's Rift (5v5)" > "Ranked Solo/Duo (Draft Pick)"
4. Select "Solo"
-OR-
4. Select "Duo" > "Invite" > "Start Game"
5. THEN A SCREEN POPS UP with 5 logos in a horizontal row. Under each logo is the words printed "Top", "Middle", "Jungle", "ADC", "Support". The logo and word will be one large button similar to the red "Play" button. And all five buttons will toggle. You will toggle all the roles that you will/want to play then click a "Confirm" button at the bottom.
6. You wait while it looks for 4 other players filling all the roles and places you into the Champions Select lobby.

So essentially you will pick your roles that you know how to play or want to play.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition to the system above they could implement a second voting system to try and remove the trolls that toggle "ADC" and pick a "Support".

This system would happen inside of the Champion Select. There would be a small "Vote to Dodge" button at the bottom of the screen and a counter for both sides. Some what like the kill's totals for each team at the top of the screen when your spectating a game.

This counter will start at [ 0 | 0 ] and will increase with each time the "Vote to Dodge" button is pressed until either side reaches 4. Once 4 out of the 5 players "Vote to Dodge" the Champion Select is left, and ALL 5 players on the team, and only that team that voted to dodge receive a 20 minute wait time (Same time as it takes to vote to surrender). Giving this 20 minute wait time will reduce the amount of people dodging simply because they think the other team is "More OP" or has a much larger advantage. And giving the penalty to all 5 players, not only the 4 that voted make it so that the troll also has to wait AND makes it so that it doesn't sit at 3 votes because no one wants to be the 4th and have to wait.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

BEFORE YOU POST READ THE FAQ TO SEE IF I ALREADY ANSWERED IT.
I will try to keep this updated with any GOOD WELL WRITTEN questions asked along with the name of the user who asked it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

FAQ:

Q: Doesn't this defeat the purpose of knowing how to play all roles?
A: While this does make it so that you do not need to be knowledgeable in all roles. You still will need to learn them to move up in divisions quickly and efficiently. Just like in an MMO where the healer/tank will get a match almost instantly opposed to dps. If you chose a role that is less known or learn/toggle all the roles you will queue up much faster giving you an advantage.

Q: Can't someone just learn one champion and play them all the time?
A: Yes they could. But then they have a much larger chance to lose and stay in their division because of being countered all the time.

Q: Can't someone just abuse this the same as you said before? They can just toggle ADC and pick a support?
A: Of course. All systems can be abused in one way or another. Even the banning of players can be abused by a troll. But this will improve the game play making less trolls, and allow more people to play the game fairly. People will be much less likely to troll or throw a game in the Champion Select if they get to pick for the role they want before hand.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry for typing so much but thank you for taking the time to read my post. Please leave feedback below
And I thought I had no life...