A new player to the PvP circuit

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chaser676

Senior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherfox View Post
never seen34: Thank you for your continual support in this thread; your advice is most appreciated. :)

Sereg Anfaug: That is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for! Detailed, and full of pros and cons for the decision to play Shen with little cash. Like the suggestion of Zyra, I've got more to think about.

To anyone else who's reading, please feel free to add your own advice. I'm finding all of this helpful! :) I have been practicing as support against beginner and intermediate bots. I've even tried a few normal games, though some go better than others.

Actually, for the next question: what do you do when your carry decides to be passive, and other lanes can use your support? I know that each individual situation is different, but I'm curious from a standard perspective if it's better to keep the carry alive (even though he'd rather farm than kill), or is it better to ensure no lanes fall?

As always, thanks for the support in helping a new player grow within the community!
It's generally frowned upon if the support stays in another lane too long. Solo top and mid champions typically scale well with levels, having a support there will give them dramatic experience disadvantage over time.


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OriginalJack

Senior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherfox View Post
never seen34: Thank you for your continual support in this thread; your advice is most appreciated.

Sereg Anfaug: That is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for! Detailed, and full of pros and cons for the decision to play Shen with little cash. Like the suggestion of Zyra, I've got more to think about.

To anyone else who's reading, please feel free to add your own advice. I'm finding all of this helpful! I have been practicing as support against beginner and intermediate bots. I've even tried a few normal games, though some go better than others.

Actually, for the next question: what do you do when your carry decides to be passive, and other lanes can use your support? I know that each individual situation is different, but I'm curious from a standard perspective if it's better to keep the carry alive (even though he'd rather farm than kill), or is it better to ensure no lanes fall?

As always, thanks for the support in helping a new player grow within the community!
As a support you should stay in lane and watch your carry's back for the entire laning phase. The other lanes have the jungler to help them out but early in the game the adc is likely the weakest one on the team so you should try to avoid leaving them alone for extended periods. This might mean just sitting in the bush and watching them farm for a while but sometimes being passive is the right move. Once the enemy tower goes down you can feel free to roam a bit but most of the time you will be most useful sticking with the carry and making sure they don't get caught.


I'll list a few of my favorite supports you should try them if you haven't already but really which one is best depends on the adc you are paired with and the champs you are up against in lane:

Soraka
Sona
Nunu
Taric
Janna <3
Leona <3
Zyra

Honorable mention (I don't really find these champs that much fun to play but they are pretty freaking effective at times)
Alistar
Blitzcrank


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Sereg Anfaug

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Senior Member

11-27-2012

The goal of laning is not to get fed with kills, but rather to get farmed. Aggression, and kills, will happen if someone gets out of position and can be punished for it, or if the jungler(or a roaming solo laner) ganks, but barring these things, kills shouldn't be happening. At low levels of play, people are out of position alot, which is why kills happen more often in laning, even without jungle intervention, and this is also why you seem to feel like a passive lane, where your carry isn't being aggressive, is a reason for you to be elsewhere.

Let me assure you, this is not the case. Your carry is supposed to be passive. He should be focusing almost all of his attention on farming and staying in a safe position. When you're not there, there are alot fewer positions that are safe for him, and he can be harassed alot easier, which means he will lose alot of farm. Your goals when supporting a passive laner should be to maintain ward coverage of approaches from jungles and other lanes(this implies map awareness to observe these wards - a ward is useless if nobody is looking at the minimap when someone walks through it), protect your carry from harassment(including warding the lane bushes if necessary), and to harass the opposing carry so he can't farm as effectively.

When you do this properly, your carry will scale more quickly then the opposing carry, and more safely then if you play aggressively. However, if you are unaware of these techniques, or worse, absent from lane, it turns from a passive lane to a defensive lane. Your carry will scale more slowly then his opponent, and he will be far more vulnerable to aggression in a 2v1 situation, to say nothing of jungle ganks, mid lane roams, or top teleport ganks.

While it's true that he will gain a slight experience lead over his opponents, that lead will be evened out by your presence in another lane, and he will fall behind in CS, which is more valuable to an AD Carry then experience.


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OriginalJack

Senior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereg Anfaug View Post
The goal of laning is not to get fed with kills, but rather to get farmed. Aggression, and kills, will happen if someone gets out of position and can be punished for it, or if the jungler(or a roaming solo laner) ganks, but barring these things, kills shouldn't be happening. At low levels of play, people are out of position alot, which is why kills happen more often in laning, even without jungle intervention, and this is also why you seem to feel like a passive lane, where your carry isn't being aggressive, is a reason for you to be elsewhere.

Let me assure you, this is not the case. Your carry is supposed to be passive. He should be focusing almost all of his attention on farming and staying in a safe position. When you're not there, there are alot fewer positions that are safe for him, and he can be harassed alot easier, which means he will lose alot of farm. Your goals when supporting a passive laner should be to maintain ward coverage of approaches from jungles and other lanes(this implies map awareness to observe these wards - a ward is useless if nobody is looking at the minimap when someone walks through it), protect your carry from harassment(including warding the lane bushes if necessary), and to harass the opposing carry so he can't farm as effectively.

When you do this properly, your carry will scale more quickly then the opposing carry, and more safely then if you play aggressively. However, if you are unaware of these techniques, or worse, absent from lane, it turns from a passive lane to a defensive lane. Your carry will scale more slowly then his opponent, and he will be far more vulnerable to aggression in a 2v1 situation, to say nothing of jungle ganks, mid lane roams, or top teleport ganks.

While it's true that he will gain a slight experience lead over his opponents, that lead will be evened out by your presence in another lane, and he will fall behind in CS, which is more valuable to an AD Carry then experience.
I really like the way you put this. I see many people try too hard to get kills and end up paying for it. The way you can tell if you won your lane isn't by the K/D/A it's about how much GP you are up by. Granted kills do get you money but hard zoning them so that they can't CS for an extended period is almost the same thing as getting a kill, it's just killing them slower. If you come out of the laning phase 0/0/0 but you have a 50 cs lead over their carry you are practically 2/0/0.

Would +2 this if I could.


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Featherfox

Member

11-27-2012

I'm sorry - there's just so much to quote here, so I'm gonna try to sum up in my own words.

1) The mid and top have a jungler to help them if they struggle.
2) The adc is squishy - so be there to help him out!
3) With possible exception of Leona, the role of support is to help the adc farm, not necessarily create positional opportunities for kills.

Did I get that right?

Also, thank you all for assuming that I already understand the basic function of wards, and how to create awareness for my carry so it's easier for him to farm. I appreciate that very much.

Sereg Anfaug - once again you amaze me with the concise reply to the question I'm looking for an answer to. Thank you so much!!

Alright, two more questions then I think I'll be armed with all the information I need to master this role!

1) What is a kill lane then, when compared to the standard role of supports like Sona or Soraka?

2) If the team composition is primarily AP (Vlad top, Oriana mid, Udyr (Phoenix) jungle, and Kog'Maw carry for example), is it better to pick a support who can help the whole team, like Lulu, or is it better to pick a support that helps protect the adc earlier on by counter-picking against the opponent's composition?

For the record - counterpicking is an advanced technique I'll look into later when I'm closer to accessing ranked play!


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Sereg Anfaug

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-27-2012

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Not entirely. Many supports are capable of setting up kills - Shen's taunt, Sona's ultimate, Blitzcrank's pull and knockup, Alistar's knockback and knockup, Taric's Stun/Shatter/Ult combo, Leona's hard initiate, Nunu's haste/slow/AoE slow combo, etc. If you see a lane opponent out of position(and can be relatively sure it's not a bait, meaning you know where the solo laners and jungler are, or have vision on any nearby dangerous areas), by all means, initiate and let your carry follow up. However, don't try to force an initiation when there's not a good opportunity, or when your carry is vulnerable or at a disadvantage.

Counterinitiation is a possibility, too. If they go in on your AD carry, then initiate on theirs and turn the fight around(again, if you're relatively sure of the safety of that option - they may be baiting a counterinitiate for their jungle or a roaming laner to follow up on. In some cases, it's safer to peel them off your carry and try to disengage the fight). This is also why I take exhaust as my second summoner spell on my supports - it shuts down the AD carry for a brief period of time, allowing the combination of your support abilities and your carry's damage to turn a fight around.

1) Kill lane can mean a number of things. In some cases, it refers to a support with a good potential for aggression, like Leona or Blitzcrank, picked with the goal of focusing more on killing the enemy laners then protecting and harassing while farming. That doesn't mean those supports will always be played that way. I've also seen it used to refer to off-meta, usually double bruiser, but sometimes ADC/bruiser comps that also intend to shut down the opposing lane rather then outfarm them.

It's not something I personally like to do. I'm a passive AD carry, so when I'm supporting, I assume the same until proven otherwise, or have a great opportunity to initiate to our advantage. I play alot of Leona, but she also has excellent defensive abilities, and can do quite alot to peel aggression off the carry, in addition to her strong initiation.

2) That's an interesting question. Usually, I play whatever my carry prefers, or I run a complementary support, like Nunu with Kog, Taric with Sivir, Soraka with Urgot, etc. I worry more about lane comp then teamcomp, when I play a support. Itemization with an AP heavy team will be different, though - you might want to focus on auras that help casters, like Soul Shroud, Will of the Ancients, or Abyssal Sceptre, rather then Zeke's, since they'll be of greater use to more of your teammates. Then again, it's also possible that AP heavy teams will already be building one or more of those, so check with your teammates to find out what they plan to build, and watch their itemization with Tab.

When I'm playing Top or Jungle, I'm much more inclined to try to fill out a team comp with regards to AD or AP, then I am with other lanes. Mid is almost always an AP carry, and Bottom is almost always an AD carry with a support. Those roles are pretty well defined, and I usually try to follow them except in specific circumstances(such as picking Tryndamere to lane against an early Kass pick mid).

As a support, your main focus will be ensuring your carry stays safe and gets fed/farmed. The rest of the team should take care of themselves. As the game progresses, you may find that there are choices you can make to support the team as a whole, but at champion select, you want to focus on supporting your lanemate, at least until you start working with premades or higher ELO solo queue where team composition starts to be a bigger factor.

When in doubt, go with something that your carry is comfortable with, or if he doesn't have a preference, something you're comfortable with.

As far as counterpicking, that's really not my area of expertise. I've played over a thousand games, and I still know relatively little about that, so I can't offer much help there.


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Armageddal

Senior Member

11-27-2012

Nice name, Featherfox.

By the way, you can turn off voices in options. I personally found them very annoying, and they even turned me off some champions (I really don't like Ahri's, erm, sketchy comments).


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Featherfox

Member

11-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armageddal View Post
Nice name, Featherfox.

By the way, you can turn off voices in options. I personally found them very annoying, and they even turned me off some champions (I really don't like Ahri's, erm, sketchy comments).
Thank you so much for pointing this out! I don't know how I missed it!!! Now I can add Taric to my roster (when I get IP :P)

Sereg Anfaug: I hope I get to play against you, or with you in a game someday. The information you've shared is invaluable!

I appreciate all the good information you've given me. Thanks to these tips, information displayed in guides makes a lot more sense. Armed with this knowledge, I think I have what I need to be the support players need on the Fields of Justice!

I look forward to playing with you in the future.

- Featherfox


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Featherfox

Member

01-24-2013

So it's been a while - and I'm nearing the inevitable access to ranked queue.

Surprisingly, I've really enjoyed playing Zyra as my main support. However, after 58 PvP matches, I only have 26 wins. If anyone does read this, I just want to know if it's common for solo queue normals to have more losses than wins?

It can be frustrating to perform your duties perfectly, but the partner you're with doesn't exploit them. Or worse, your partner is doing well, and you're the one with immense lag. I've also found that even if bottom lane goes well, we can still easily lose the game.

Finally, on a random note, do you guys think the following champions can support in the bottom lane:

- Anivia?
- Xin Zhao?
- Yorick?

Thank you for taking the time to read this post and reply.

- Featherfox


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Sukh01

Senior Member

01-24-2013

This topic was made by one of our fellow summoners: bluescarla and it has a good advices on the support role you are playing: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2887594

You will hear that any champion can support, but be carefull, when you reach 30 and you go ranked, you have to go with one that fulfills the support role (or they will call you troll)

Anivia, Xin Zhao and Yorick "can" play the "poke support" role, it means they will try to hurt the other carry or support a lot without getting heavy damage in return. Also "kill-lane support" as they can kill the enemy support. But keep in mind that this is not optimal to win the game. HF.