ELO reset support group...match history = defeat

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

McZwick

Member

11-26-2012

I've played LoL a few nights a week since season one...and am still bad enough that the ELO reset results in me getting ROFLstomped. Give me two more chances and my entire match history will be red.

The bummer is that now I don't want to play, because it's not fun, but I keep playing out of some since of obligation...because I know that after I keep losing I'll finally get to play with/against all of you other below average players and begin having fun again.

Ugh...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Grollm

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by McZwick View Post
I've played LoL a few nights a week since season one...and am still bad enough that the ELO reset results in me getting ROFLstomped. Give me two more chances and my entire match history will be red.

The bummer is that now I don't want to play, because it's not fun, but I keep playing out of some since of obligation...because I know that after I keep losing I'll finally get to play with/against all of you other below average players and begin having fun again.

Ugh...
Why not get better? If you know you are a below average player practice in normals and then go to ranked. It's silly to keep playing ranked to deliberately lower your elo so you can play with people who are your skill level. Because honestly, I've been to the dregs of the 600 elo and people aren't just bad down there, they are absolutely horrendous. And there is a point where if you get too low in elo you will never climb back up. Just practice normals until you can compete with people around the 1200ish elo range and you will be good to go. And honestly, if you've been playing since season one and you can't beat people at the 1200 elo (keep in mind you have an invisible elo of around 1200 when you first ding to 30) then maybe you should drop ranked altogether and just play normals?
EDIT:
After looking at your match history, like many other people, you need help with last hitting. Also you need to try not and feed as much. The last 10 games you've died an average of 6-7 times. Check out some of these guides, I think they will dramatically help you. http://www.lolpro.com/guides/game-play


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

foxfire100

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Alternatively, stop caring about ELO. It's 99% random and there's almost nothing you can do to fix that unless they revamp the formula and fix match making.

I've been telling people ELO was random for months but of course - "why should I trust you? Your ELO is only XXX". So I decided to take the reset to prove my point. I played some incredibly OP champs and only duo'd after the reset to get the greatest odds of success and won 5 of my first 6 matches. And I noticed something that I expected.

Below 1300 ELO, ranked was HARD. Everyone was good, with the occasional afk or feeder or newbie. But it was one out of ten who was bad. Everyone else had played HUNDREDS of games and was desperate to escape ELO hell and they would hack, scratch, and bite until they pulled themselves out. It was vicious, everyone warded, people were good at last-hitting, ganks were often and terrifying...

Then I broke 1300. I hit a new tier. I was playing with a new set of peers. EVERYONE. Not just one person, not 8 people, but EVERYONE was terrible. The only wards on my team all game were the ones that I laid, and I doubt the enemy laid any wards. Our AD carry didn't know what last-hit even meant, much less how to do it (had 30 CS by about 15 minutes). The enemy AD carry wasn't much better. Unfortunately I had made the mistake of playing a tank support so I didn't have heals when my AD carry face-planted their turret time and time again and the match ended in my second loss of the pre-season. I've decided since then not to play ranked unless I'm duo'ing with my friend again for the best odds.

But that told me something. The people at 1300 ELO aren't "better than 1200 ELO", they aren't "pros", they aren't even good. They're the select few who got lucky enough to win their first 5 games. Maybe at 1800 ELO the story is different, but 1200 and below honestly consists of 50% of the best players in the League, all trapped by a horrible system which doesn't give a damn how skilled you are.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

McZwick

Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollm View Post
Why not get better?
lol...never thought of that. I do play mostly normals, and only play ranked when I'm feeling on top of my game (not tired, frustrated, etc). My ELO last season was 1280 (I think) I try out new champs and things in customs with my friends. Then try them in normals, and only take things I'm best with into ranked. I'm not trying to intentionally lower my ELO (that would imply losing on purpose).

Dedicating myself to getting better is difficult when I only play a few nights a week.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

foxfire100

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by McZwick View Post
lol...never thought of that. I do play mostly normals, and only play ranked when I'm feeling on top of my game (not tired, frustrated, etc). My ELO last season was 1280 (I think) I try out new champs and things in customs with my friends. Then try them in normals, and only take things I'm best with into ranked. I'm not trying to intentionally lower my ELO (that would imply losing on purpose).

Dedicating myself to getting better is difficult when I only play a few nights a week.
Don't stress it. See my post above. ELO is basically random. There's no way you can be guaranteed to improve it. You can only give yourself the best odds.

Plus, if you only play a few nights a week, you simply won't be good enough to reach 1450 ELO. The people who reach gold, platinum, and diamond are the people who have no life and play 3-4 games A DAY. Some of these people go to tournaments and get paid to play videogames so they don't need to work or go to school, either.

League of Legends is a game. Whether you win or lose, it wasn't worth any money you spent on it if you don't enjoy it.

Do I wish they would revamp ELO? Hell yes. Will they any time soon? Probably not. I made a long post before about the exact math and why ELO was broken and how to fix it but I just got ignored with a curt "You're only 1200 ELO, why listen to you?"

Apparently unless your random number is high enough you aren't an expert in random numbers.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

McZwick

Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfire100 View Post
Whether you win or lose, it wasn't worth any money you spent on it if you don't enjoy it.
I agree with this. I'm not stressed about my ELO...only bummed that the ELO reset has meant that the game is temporarily quite unfun for me. Maybe I should take a couple weeks off so all the better players and seed their ELO and get themselves out of my range.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Grollm

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by McZwick View Post
I agree with this. I'm not stressed about my ELO...only bummed that the ELO reset has meant that the game is temporarily quite unfun for me. Maybe I should take a couple weeks off so all the better players and seed their ELO and get themselves out of my range.
Or like I said earlier, don't play ranked. Just play normals and get better. And as far as what Foxfire said elo is not random, there is a formula, sometimes it's flawed, but you have to keep in mind that there is just as much of a chance that the enemy team is going to be teamed with a feeder, afker, greiver, troll etc. Last night I played a game where I was Darius jungle and the enemy team had 2 afks. It happens on both ends. On average you are going to lose half of the ranked games you play. The top solo queue person from last season(orb Lemonnation) lost 49.9% of his games, and he's a pro player. Just play more games and if you don't want to drop to the dregs of elo hell, play normals. Get REALLY good at normals, then step into ranked. I took my own advice this season and did about 30 normals before going into ranked and I'm already 8-4, with a kda of 6.2/3.8/8.3. Although I'm only at 1128 elo at the moment, I ended last season at about 700 elo and I was only at the about 900ish the start of this season. Just read the guides I posted. They will really help you out if you want to get better at this game. If you don't want to get better and you are content just playing mediocre then why not just play against bots or play customs?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

foxfire100

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollm View Post
Or like I said earlier, don't play ranked. Just play normals and get better. And as far as what Foxfire said elo is not random, there is a formula, sometimes it's flawed, but you have to keep in mind that there is just as much of a chance that the enemy team is going to be teamed with a feeder, afker, greiver, troll etc. Last night I played a game where I was Darius jungle and the enemy team had 2 afks. It happens on both ends. On average you are going to lose half of the ranked games you play. The top solo queue person from last season(orb Lemonnation) lost 49.9% of his games, and he's a pro player. Just play more games and if you don't want to drop to the dregs of elo hell, play normals. Get REALLY good at normals, then step into ranked. I took my own advice this season and did about 30 normals before going into ranked and I'm already 8-4, with a kda of 6.2/3.8/8.3. Although I'm only at 1128 elo at the moment, I ended last season at about 700 elo and I was only at the about 900ish the start of this season. Just read the guides I posted. They will really help you out if you want to get better at this game. If you don't want to get better and you are content just playing mediocre then why not just play against bots or play customs?
There is a formula, but the formula itself is flawed. Without posting the math, the formula says thus:

If you win against a player with higher ELO than you, you gain a lot of ELO
If you win against a player with lower ELO than you, you gain a little ELO
If you lose against a player with higher ELO than you, you lose a little ELO
If you lose agianst a player with lower ELO than you, you lose a lot of ELO

Now as you said, the best players in the entire league win about 50% of their games. I think the number 1 in the ladders at the end of season 2 won 53% of his games.

But here's the rub: You're matched with and against random players. Therefore whether you have higher ELO than the enemy team or lower ELO than the enemy team is random. So you flip a coin to determine if you win (because, like you just admitted, you win 50% of your games) then if it turns up heads, you add a random number between 5 and 15. If it turns up tails you subtract a random number between 5 and 15.

If you're lucky then you're constantly adding 15 and subtracting 5. If you're unlucky then you constantly add 5 and subtract 15.

In season 2 I had around 80 wins and 60 losses. An INCREDIBLE 57% win ratio. Despite this I had 1150 ELO. I had LESS than when I started despite winning more than I lost. Conversely I looked through the ladders and found players like Nyvia who had 300 losses and 250 wins (or thereabouts) but had 1600 ELO.

Yes, there's a formula. But if the formula involves random numbers, the formula is random. And the random numbers in the ELO formula are the random match making. You get matched with and against random people, thus ELO is random.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Grollm

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfire100 View Post
There is a formula, but the formula itself is flawed. Without posting the math, the formula says thus:

If you win against a player with higher ELO than you, you gain a lot of ELO
If you win against a player with lower ELO than you, you gain a little ELO
If you lose against a player with higher ELO than you, you lose a little ELO
If you lose agianst a player with lower ELO than you, you lose a lot of ELO

Now as you said, the best players in the entire league win about 50% of their games. I think the number 1 in the ladders at the end of season 2 won 53% of his games.

But here's the rub: You're matched with and against random players. Therefore whether you have higher ELO than the enemy team or lower ELO than the enemy team is random. So you flip a coin to determine if you win (because, like you just admitted, you win 50% of your games) then if it turns up heads, you add a random number between 5 and 15. If it turns up tails you subtract a random number between 5 and 15.

If you're lucky then you're constantly adding 15 and subtracting 5. If you're unlucky then you constantly add 5 and subtract 15.

In season 2 I had around 80 wins and 60 losses. An INCREDIBLE 57% win ratio. Despite this I had 1150 ELO. I had LESS than when I started despite winning more than I lost. Conversely I looked through the ladders and found players like Nyvia who had 300 losses and 250 wins (or thereabouts) but had 1600 ELO.

Yes, there's a formula. But if the formula involves random numbers, the formula is random. And the random numbers in the ELO formula are the random match making. You get matched with and against random people, thus ELO is random.
You have to play more games. Yes you have 57% win rate, but look at the pros who have the really high elos. Look at how many games they play. The system is set up so in a perfect world, you play infinite games, you will end up at your "true elo." It also depends on your placement matches. If you botch all 10 of your placement matches, you are going to be placed in a lower elo and it's going to be harder to climb. And Nyvia, I'm just throwing a guess out there, but he probably did really well on his placement matches and he hovered between 1500-1700 elo for season 2. Think of it like working out, once you establish your physique and you are in really good shape, it's much easier to maintain that then for someone who is a overweight and has never worked out to get into tiptop shape. The idea is, do well on your placement matches, and then it's going to be much easier for you to climb. If you lose all 10 of your placement matches, then you are going to have your work cut out of your trying to get to a decent elo. Can it be done? Sure, but it's going to be difficult.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

foxfire100

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollm View Post
You have to play more games. Yes you have 57% win rate, but look at the pros who have the really high elos. Look at how many games they play. The system is set up so in a perfect world, you play infinite games, you will end up at your "true elo." It also depends on your placement matches. If you botch all 10 of your placement matches, you are going to be placed in a lower elo and it's going to be harder to climb. And Nyvia, I'm just throwing a guess out there, but he probably did really well on his placement matches and he hovered between 1500-1700 elo for season 2. Think of it like working out, once you establish your physique and you are in really good shape, it's much easier to maintain that then for someone who is a overweight and has never worked out to get into tiptop shape. The idea is, do well on your placement matches, and then it's going to be much easier for you to climb. If you lose all 10 of your placement matches, then you are going to have your work cut out of your trying to get to a decent elo. Can it be done? Sure, but it's going to be difficult.
But you JUST said that the odds of winning any game are around 50%

So yes, if you played infinity games then your ELO would reflect your true ELO. I won't deny this. At infinity the variance is completely removed. In fact, at around 3000 games the variance is reduced to 1% and so you're close enough to your true ELO (with the exception of the placement matches having more weight, so there's still some added variability in there)

So if winning your first 10 matches means you can lose more than you win but still hover around 1500-1700, AND if the odds of winning any of these 10 matches (mind you 10 is less than infinity) is 50%, then aren't you admitting that your ELO is the result of 10 random coin flips?


12