AP TF: An Anachronism in LoL?

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GamBino826

Senior Member

03-27-2010

As the title states, I'm wondering why AP TF is still being used. Especially with the AP coefficient of Wild Cards being reduced to 0.5, wouldn't the overall damage output be higher from a DPS TF?

Being a DPS TF myself, I notice that at end game, I usually get around 250 damage with around 1.8 attack speed to boot, so I would say that I generate 450 damage output per second. Usually, I notice that end game AP TFs generate somewhere around 200 AP as well, and Wild Cards maxed has a base damage of 260 (+0.5 AP coefficient), so that would roughly generate a burst of around 360 (I'll generously say 380). That has a cooldown of 6 seconds (without any CDR), which is quite a while considering a DPS TF can generate a LOT more damage in 6 seconds.

Of course, I've left one factor out of the equation, which is Pick a Card. Maxed out at Level 5, Blue and Red Cards have 90 Base Damage while a Gold Card has 45 (half of those). All of them have an AP coefficient of 0.4, which is relatively low given that this is supposedly the "bread and butter" skill of AP TFs. Especially, now with the re-make, Red Card recieves bonus damage equal to the Attack Damage of TF, which obviously gives another kick to the DPS TF players, who *should* near end game have around 250 (if not more). This obviously gives a lot more power to Red Card because the coefficient applied is 1, not 0.4, like the AP one.

I don't know about higher ELO, as I'm pretty sure I'm still a long distance away, but why do I still see people running around with pure AP TF's? Is it because of some nolgastic feeling for the past? I hope I'm not missing anything here.


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PatMcGroyne

Senior Member

03-27-2010

Okay DPS means damage per second has nothing to do with attack damage... AP TF is a DPS build and so is AD if you are building TF for anything other than DPS are are severly challenged...

To answer your question most people use AD but I have seen some people using AP still although their success was limited.


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ZuKii

Senior Member

03-27-2010

I've played TF a lot since the update and I'd say that he's fun to stomp with as AD but he is super squishy and has no escape mechanism (unless you destiny / gate out but I always use destiny as a gank / map awareness tool and it's rarely off cooldown for group fights (it normally causes them)).

If the enemy team has half a clue they just target you first and you die within seconds as AD TF. A lot of my recent matches have just been me getting roflstomped early and never being able to recover.

AP TF has the ability to farm really well with wiild cards + red card without having to be cloes to the mobs. He can also stay so far back in team fights (because of wild card range) that trying to go for him is a waste of time.
It's easier to wild card + red card (using auto attacks for lich bane procs) as AP TF than AD TF because you don't have to be constantly auto attacking for your damage to appear.

I've also heard the argument that he's a better burst character. You can literally: Wild Cards -> Auto Attack -> Pick a Card -> Auto Attack -> Pick Red -> Hit with lich proc + red and run away again until your cooldowns have reset. Whereas AD just has to stay there and hope no one stuns / charges him.

Ive played AP TF like 3 times so take this with a grain of salt but it's easier to stay out of harms way. However you get a lot of abuse from people thinking that anything but AD/AS TF is ******ed.


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notliam

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Recruiter

03-27-2010

AP TF allows you to use pick a card and hit an enemy as your stacked deck is on 3, so you deal the extra damage from that too. It does attack damage + PAC damage + stacked deck damage. This is an awesome, spammable nuke that stuns/slows the enemy, or gives you mana for free.

DPS TF is great, but AP is more nukey. With Nashor's Tooth + Rageblade, he has pretty good dps too :P


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Morzas

Senior Member

03-27-2010

The Attack Speed build has superior sustained damage and Stacked Deck works on towers right now. If Stacked Deck really is going to be nerfed to not work on towers, the Attack Speed build won't be such a clear-cut choice any more.

I personally like the Ability Power build more, but it serves a very different purpose. The Attack Speed build is good at dealing lots of damage to towers and is stronger in a committed team fight. The Ability Power build is stronger in siege scenarios. I personally hate teamfighting, it's usually a big risk. I prefer having the enemy team camping at their tower while my team forces them to retreat or to fight us with lowered HP by harassing with long-range attacks. If the enemy team has dedicated healing then a siege won't really work, so if you see a Taric or Soraka you don't want to play the Ability Power build unless your whole team has the ability to lay siege to the enemy team.


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-27-2010

It's because of burst damage. TF's range is low, he is squishy and he has no reliable escape mechanism. Standing still for extended periods of time puts a big fat 'FOCUS ME' tag over his head. He is not ashe, corki or tristana who can either kite or do DPS when not autoattacking and/or escape.

TF with 250+AP and a Lichbane can produce some very acceptable burst damage. If he goldcards on a stacked deck, his damage is better than it was last patch. On top of that, an extra 0.5 seconds stun thats more reliable to fetch. Granted, it does take 3 skills to max now over 2, but the point remains.

For pubs, DPS TF works wonderfully, but at high elo you want AP or hybrid (going trinity force to add some burst to goldcard)


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Benadryl Jackson

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Senior Member

03-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuKii View Post
I've played TF a lot since the update and I'd say that he's fun to stomp with as AD but he is super squishy and has no escape mechanism (unless you destiny / gate out but I always use destiny as a gank / map awareness tool and it's rarely off cooldown for group fights (it normally causes them)).

You're neglecting TF's most obvious escape mechanism, which is Pick a Card. Now that obviously isn't good enough if you're getting ganked by their whole team, but against 1, 2, or sometimes even 3 assailants a good TF can escape with a well placed Gold or Red card.

Also, if you're playing TF the Benadryl Jackson way, then you'll have over 400 movespeed early on, and that makes things even easier.


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Dr Troll

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Senior Member

03-27-2010

I think AD and AP TFs are rather weak, full AS is much better in my opinion.

Benadryl is right about PaC being your best escape mechanism, and gating out works very well too.

I still insist over and over again that AS TF IS burst damage, as you'll do plenty of damage during the GC stun. I won't get into it with Charm here though.


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Excession

Senior Member

03-27-2010

simply because ap dishes out a good amount of damage from range and very quickly, whereas with as and ad, you have to get close up and personal. just try it. after reading charmi and drtroll's discussion, i switched to ap, and had much better results.

mega props to you Charmi


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Charmicarmicarmicat

Senior Member

03-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excession View Post
simply because ap dishes out a good amount of damage from range and very quickly, whereas with as and ad, you have to get close up and personal. just try it. after reading charmi and drtroll's discussion, i switched to ap, and had much better results.

mega props to you Charmi
Yes that's pretty much the bottomline of things. In a competitive environment i've found it frustratingly hard to stay alive against fiddle, annie and alistar (3 very popular heroes) while dishing out damage. Instead, I realised that it was better to provide some burst from a longer range until much of the initial burst has settled down. So for that purpose, a hit-and-run tactic was preferrable.

I've tried experimenting with level 1 PaC while leveling stacked deck earlier. Surprisingly I had no trouble landing GC WC combo unless they had mercury treads and were running away at maximum range so I've sort of adopted the idea of lvl 1 pac. Having level 3-4 stacked deck as an AP build is actually strong enough to allow you to engage most enemies at 40-50% HP head on at around level 9-10'ish. It also provides the quick burst damage and the ability to chip away health at enormous distances.


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