[Champion Idea.] Dante the Darkslayer (Work in Progress)

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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Actually looking at the ult, it has negative synergy; the damage scales off how much damage you take while it's up i.e. Idol of durand, but then makes it harder for enemies to damage you. I would probably rework this.

Also, is it a taunt or a stun? The description says one thing and the ability text another. Personally like the idea of a taunt considering it scales off how much damage you take. If taunt, the duration should probably be slightly longer.

The ability should also have some AD scaling. It's weak compared to all other true damage ults; alternatively it could be an AOE in which case it's currently too OP at later ranks, and not good early game.


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Cryoshell17

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
Is this really what I think it is o.O. A balanced champion, I demand it be removed from the forums as a disgrace (Sarcasm). Obviously you have put too much time and effort into the endeavor.
First concept on these forums...So it's good thing it's my best when it comes to balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
I like the e, but I think it would work better with his kit if it were more like Vi's Excessive Force, and was applied as an auto attack reset/aoe dmg directly behind target enemy. This would make it much easier to stack up the attack speed on his passive in short engagements/ganks so that he does the extra damage.
So make it so it proc's his passive? Seems fair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
Final comments; energy based characters usually have an energy bar between 200 and 300 units large. You can't actually get off a full combo using all of his abilities with his current kit. I would suggest adding some skill based way of reclaiming energy as part of the combo so that you can extend it.

Also I don't see the size of his energy pool listed anywhere, but maybe I'm blind.

His E isn't really meant to be part of a combo. It would be OP if it branched out. Maybe if you hit with 2 of your E casts you get refunded a portion of the energy used. I've kinda always thought that base energy is always 200. I've yet to see any existing champions have more so...My bad. :3


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
Actually looking at the ult, it has negative synergy; the damage scales off how much damage you take while it's up i.e. Idol of durand, but then makes it harder for enemies to damage you. I would probably rework this.
That would make sense. You will be building him as a bruiser so no need for damage reduction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
Also, is it a taunt or a stun? The description says one thing and the ability text another. Personally like the idea of a taunt considering it scales off how much damage you take. If taunt, the duration should probably be slightly longer.
Taunt for 2 seconds, stun for 1 second. Therefore 3 seconds of hard CC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post
The ability should also have some AD scaling. It's weak compared to all other true damage ults; alternatively it could be an AOE in which case it's currently too OP at later ranks, and not good early game.
I did think of trying an AoE version of it but it ended up being too powerful with the true damage but I feel like it dealing true damage is what makes it more tailored to him, the one move that there is no defense for. But I do see why it would need some AD scaling. How much do you suppose would be balanced? 0.4 for 2 seconds making it 0.8 when fully channeled or 0.5 for 2 seconds making it 1.0 when fully channeled?


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Icraig33

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Aight, here is my review, take what you wish of it

Innate:
- I would be careful with the maximum attack speed. I don't know how much Voli gets from his W or how much Jax gets from his innate, but I'd be sure to make the cap less than Jax's (due to the fact that you get bonus splash effect at max stacks). Otherwise, it's a pretty cool concept.

Q:
- 2 things. First, Is the AD scaling on this ability bonus AD (excludes base AD) or total AD (includes base AD). It's a pretty important thing to notify because if total, the base damage on the ability, especially considering you mention this champ having high base AD, is too high and should probably be toned down (the amount it should be toned down by would depend on how much base AD the champ actually has). Second, I think you could get away with a lower cooldown on this ability at rank one, especially if the ability scales with bonus AD.

W:
- I can definitely say that the cooldown on this one is too high. You should give it a cooldown similar to the current CD of Q. basic abilities with high cooldowns should be reserved to abilities with huge utility (ashes E for example). Otherwise, I'd say that the area of effect is too dependent on stacking charges and the damage per stack is a little too much. I'd increase the base AoE slightly and reduce the amount gained from stacks to compensate, as well as decrease amount of general damage per stack and increase the base scaling to compensate. I personally believe the stacks should serve as icing on the cake, not the whole cake itself. Really cool-sounding ability aside from that.

E:
- I'd say the base damage at rank 1 is too much for anyone to handle. 225 total base damage is more than half anivia's base health of 420. Even Riven's Q with it's 2 extra casts only does 90 base damage if all three hit at rank one. I would tone that base damage down to around 30 on first cast, 45 on second and 60 on the final cast. That way you can still have a high base damage of 135 (which every other ability dreams of having) without it being overboard. Also, much like the other abilities, the cooldown seems too high for being just damage. I don't take the absurdly high base damage as an excuse because the ability shouldn't have that high a base damage to begin with, nor should any ability ever be able to potentially take out 50% of some champions health pools with base damage alone (or even with runes/masteries/items for that matter). 15s at rank one and scaling down to 11 should be fine. Also, the range/width on this ability seems just plain inconsistent in general. I think a range of 400/500/600 units with a width of 200/250/300 units should be fine.

R:
- This one, I have no complaints. Well done on it. though I do have to say that i'm iffy with it being true damage on a taunt, but I'll let it slide since it has short-ish range, is single-target, has no scaling and doesn't refresh on kill.

Overall, he seems like a pretty neat champion. There are definitely number tweaks that should be made though.


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Cryoshell17

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Thanks for taking the time. I'll try to get some of those changes in.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryoshell17 View Post
His E isn't really meant to be part of a combo. It would be OP if it branched out. Maybe if you hit with 2 of your E casts you get refunded a portion of the energy used. I've kinda always thought that base energy is always 200. I've yet to see any existing champions have more so...My bad. :3
Hmm... I think I've always run masteries which affect this number, and the wiki isn't helpful so i'll assume you're right and I'm wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryoshell17 View Post
That would make sense. You will be building him as a bruiser so no need for damage reduction.

Taunt for 2 seconds, stun for 1 second. Therefore 3 seconds of hard CC.

I did think of trying an AoE version of it but it ended up being too powerful with the true damage but I feel like it dealing true damage is what makes it more tailored to him, the one move that there is no defense for. But I do see why it would need some AD scaling. How much do you suppose would be balanced? 0.4 for 2 seconds making it 0.8 when fully channeled or 0.5 for 2 seconds making it 1.0 when fully channeled?
I sort of like the single target ult better anyway. Considering it's a taunt and a stun it doesn't need any cc buff. So is the true damage ult a dot then? I was thinking it was applied all in one go at the end of the taunt duration. Also, is this a channeled ability? I don't think that works well -- he'd get a lot more utility out of this if he can move around and attack while the taunt is up, sort of like rammus's puncturing taunt or shen's dash.

I would balance the ability so that it does a max of ~300-400 damage at rank one ~450-550 damage at rank two, and ~ 700-800 max damage at rank 3. Total scaling somewhere between .8 and 1 would be appropriate for your current values.


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Cryoshell17

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzanio View Post

I sort of like the single target ult better anyway. Considering it's a taunt and a stun it doesn't need any cc buff. So is the true damage ult a dot then? I was thinking it was applied all in one go at the end of the taunt duration. Also, is this a channeled ability? I don't think that works well -- he'd get a lot more utility out of this if he can move around and attack while the taunt is up, sort of like rammus's puncturing taunt or shen's dash.

I would balance the ability so that it does a max of ~300-400 damage at rank one ~450-550 damage at rank two, and ~ 700-800 max damage at rank 3. Total scaling somewhere between .8 and 1 would be appropriate for your current values.
True damage is all in one go. Also...Maybe I can make it to work like Zed's mark and have it do damage that way.

Also I'm going to change it to physical damage.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Random thoughts rereading his abilities:

Q: at max ranks you have a dash every 6 seconds, sort of like a kassidin ult movement wise; probably want this to be 8-10 secs since there are good cdr items for bruisers now.

W: synergy opportunity; maybe make it so that enemies affect by the slow from q are rooted for 1 second if max stacks are used. (so kill rotation would be q, e/auto attack, when the slow is about to wear off, w, more e/autoattack, ult if need be) I would also reduce the amount and duration of the slow so that it becomes more important to land q properly

R: Nothing new is jumping out at me. Not sure what you want the ult to do specifically, which makes commenting hard.

Thoughts for energy reclamation; well obviously his q is like shen's taunt, so you could add something here, maybe make it cost more base, but give energy back per enemy hit. Althernatively you could regain a large amount of the energy cost upon successfully slowing an enemy champ w/ this, which would give you enough energy to actually combo w/ other skills. Yet another option is having energy refunded from using his w on an enemy which is slowed, with the amount restored scaling up based upon the number of charges that were on that ability.

I wouldn't implement all of these by any means, but it would allow the kit some more versatility (and probably require some rebalancing). If you like the energy refund idea, I would personally like the last suggestion best (or something similar) since it's the most unique.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Ooh, updated while I was writing that; like the new e.

Thinking about the ult, it probably still needs work; I'll get back to you.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-19-2012

So here's my thought on the ult. He needs something to make him beefier temporarily since the rest of his kit lacks sustain. I think he has enough poke w/ his e, and escape w/ his w/q that this isn't a problem in lane, but it's going to be an issue in team fights, or during ganks if he's out of energy. I also like the idea of a flash to enemy champion's position since his a dueler, and this would let him potentially play an assassin role in team fights. On the other hand there's no need for this against an already stunned target, and I don't really agree with him being untargetable at the end of the ult. Also, the current ability still has negative synergy, poor damage, and now has too much cc.

My thought: Ult Taunts enemy champion for 1.5/2/2.5 seconds. For the duration of the ultimate Dante takes 50% normal damage from non target champion, and stores the other 50% for later use (up to 400, 500, 600 damage). At the end of the taunt the stored damage is converted into a health shield which gains his full AD scaling and has a minimum of 100/200/300 +1.0 AD health (lasts 3 seconds or until broken), furthermore Dante can reactivate the ability within the next 3 seconds to step through the void to appear behind his target. While the shield is active all enemies within 400 units of Dante have their attack speed slowed 20/25/30%, and take 30% of the shield's max health per second in damage.

EDIT: Can simply be 50% normal damage from all sources if you'd prefer, but then the damage reduction would have to be nerfed, and probably made to scale; should do this anyway actually. This could become OP really easily.

EDIT 2: If target champion dies before the taunt ends, Dante retains his damage reduction stat until the taunt would have ended. Not sure what the cd should be on this; If it weren't for the damage reduction I'd make it like riven w/ 75/60/45, w/ damage reduction it should be somewhere between hers and Ali's, which is 120/100/80. I would personally leave it closer to riven's since the damage reduction (and total duration of the ult) is significantly shorter than Ali's. Maybe 90/75/60.

EDIT 3: Changed void step in text.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icraig33 View Post
Aight, here is my review, take what you wish of it

Innate:
- I would be careful with the maximum attack speed. I don't know how much Voli gets from his W or how much Jax gets from his innate, but I'd be sure to make the cap less than Jax's (due to the fact that you get bonus splash effect at max stacks). Otherwise, it's a pretty cool concept.
If the attack speed didn't immediately reset after the splash triggered I would agree w/ him; I think the numbers are solid personally.