Balancing and Expanding support potential - Introduction of a new stat

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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

11-25-2012

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Originally Posted by Autocthon View Post
We don't need more stats is the basic point.
This stat is the only real way to apply meaningful balance to the support class. A stat that does not increase damage in anyway but rather increases effectiveness of utility on spells. If you applied AP scaling instead all their damage ratios would be nerfed or removed.

The basic idea here is that you actually make the support class into an actual class. AP casters/mages have AP, AD carries, bruisers, and AD casters have AD, supports would now have Utility Power.

If you honestly think its too complicated then look at the stat system of Dota vs the stat system of LOL.


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The Magic Stick

Senior Member

11-25-2012

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Originally Posted by Sagee Prime View Post
Dude... The Magic Stick is such a cuddle bumpkin.
I take a lot of offense to that sir. Why would you even say that?


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Absolute 42

Senior Member

11-25-2012

My only problem is that this could cause botlane to be even more snowbally. If supports' utility scales with items, then a botlane that gets even one kill gets an advantage in levels, damage and utility. In theory, this means they can get the snowball rolling harder.

Not saying it's a bad idea. Just pointing out that it would make for a more snowbally botlane. I tend to think that's a bad thing, but there might be ways to counteract that.


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Sagee Prime

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11-26-2012

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Originally Posted by Absolute 42 View Post
My only problem is that this could cause botlane to be even more snowbally. If supports' utility scales with items, then a botlane that gets even one kill gets an advantage in levels, damage and utility. In theory, this means they can get the snowball rolling harder.

Not saying it's a bad idea. Just pointing out that it would make for a more snowbally botlane. I tend to think that's a bad thing, but there might be ways to counteract that.
I don't think you quite read it all. With added utility scaling most of their utility would be reduced so that without utility power their utility would be worse but with utility power it would become better than before.

This really shouldn't effect snowballing as much as it takes pressure off of supports that are in a losing lane.


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Sagee Prime

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11-28-2012

Welp new support is getting nerfed hard before release


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Absolute 42

Senior Member

11-28-2012

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Originally Posted by Sagee Prime View Post
I don't think you quite read it all. With added utility scaling most of their utility would be reduced so that without utility power their utility would be worse but with utility power it would become better than before.

This really shouldn't effect snowballing as much as it takes pressure off of supports that are in a losing lane.
This seems to me to be the definition of snowballing.

Supports who have items will be even stronger than supports who don't have items.

Currently: Items give supports faster gp10, warding, health, damage (sometimes),resistances, regen, and aura/active advantage. This is actually a good thing, because it rewards supports for doing well in lane, getting assists, and generally helping out their team. Some amount of snowball is necessary and desirable to bring the game to a close in a reasonable time.

With your new stat: Items give supports everything they do currently, plus utility. By reducing base utility and adding a scaling factor, you increase the distance between a farmed support and an underfarmed support. This increases botlane's ability to snowball, because the side with the farmed support/carry now has utility advantage as well as all the other advantages.

Now this may not be too problematic. Maybe more snowball botlane is what we need. Maybe there's a clever way to mitigate for this factor and make it a non-issue. I'm just saying that with a change this big, you have to consider these kinds of things.


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Sagee Prime

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11-28-2012

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Originally Posted by Absolute 42 View Post
This seems to me to be the definition of snowballing.

Supports who have items will be even stronger than supports who don't have items.

Currently: Items give supports faster gp10, warding, health, damage (sometimes),resistances, regen, and aura/active advantage. This is actually a good thing, because it rewards supports for doing well in lane, getting assists, and generally helping out their team. Some amount of snowball is necessary and desirable to bring the game to a close in a reasonable time.
This is what synergy is aimed at fixing. Keep a close look at what generally happens in bot lane. When in a losing lane most cases the support is almost always more behind than the AD carry. If you don't get assists and gold and you aren't able to get that first gp10 item as early as the other support they get a significant lead on you. Synergy is aimed at allowing supports to be passive when losing but still get some gold. Most ranged carries are fully capable of safely farming and positioning to farm so this should never be an issue unless you are being dived by 3 or 4 champions. This allows bot lane to farm under tower and recoop if they are losing exchanges. Synergy really cannot be abused either. Essentially you only get gold if someone else kills the minion and since minion waves only have 6 to 9 minions it doesn't mater how many allies are getting the last hits. You get the same gold if 1 ally is killing them all as you would if 4 allies are killing them all. If an allied Tower or minion gets the last hit it does not count.

Quote:
With your new stat: Items give supports everything they do currently, plus utility. By reducing base utility and adding a scaling factor, you increase the distance between a farmed support and an underfarmed support. This increases botlane's ability to snowball, because the side with the farmed support/carry now has utility advantage as well as all the other advantages.

Now this may not be too problematic. Maybe more snowball botlane is what we need. Maybe there's a clever way to mitigate for this factor and make it a non-issue. I'm just saying that with a change this big, you have to consider these kinds of things.
One reason why I want synergy and Utility Power is because they support themsleves in helping offset the snowball effect. Additionally most of the early support items do not give Utility Power. Only a few Advanced Items(advanced items are made from basic items) and mostly Legendary Items (Legendary items are made from 1 or more advanced items combined with basic items) give Utility Power.

There may be problems but I'd honesty like to see some real thoughts on this. Also their was talk about adding AP scaling to support Utility but honestly that is a much bigger balance issue on its own if you think about it.


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JJ Unbreakable

Senior Member

11-29-2012

All this does is take utility out of spells and puts it into items.

Utility spells will have to have their base stats nerfed so that it all evens out when they have these items.
Which is supposed to be the advantage of support, they don't need items to be effective due to their utility. That's also how they survive on gp5 and 0 cs.
They already have the choice of choosing utility or damage with the item paths that exist already.


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Sagee Prime

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11-29-2012

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Originally Posted by JJ Unbreakable View Post
All this does is take utility out of spells and puts it into items.

Utility spells will have to have their base stats nerfed so that it all evens out when they have these items.
Which is supposed to be the advantage of support, they don't need items to be effective due to their utility. That's also how they survive on gp5 and 0 cs.
They already have the choice of choosing utility or damage with the item paths that exist already.
Supports don't really have a choice though. They are pumped full of Utility and they are relegated to being only supports.

The idea is that they would have their Utility reduced but not reduced too much that a few things like runes and masteries couldn't put them almost back where they used to be and items would just make them stronger than before on the utility side. GP10 would no longer be required with current items that are coming and and some of my ideas combined.


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JJ Unbreakable

Senior Member

11-29-2012

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Originally Posted by Sagee Prime View Post
Supports don't really have a choice though. They are pumped full of Utility and they are relegated to being only supports.
That's the idea. Support champions are support champions.
That is an archetype that is both fun and useful.

Some people like being heal-bots.
Even in TF2 where you blow things up, there's a medic. Even in Wow where you kill X amount of giant rats, there are hybrid classes which can heal or deal damage, you can still roll straight healing.

Support is a unique role that compliments the team-based style of game that is League of Legends.

Back in the DotA days, every champion was a damage source and the support role was more like a ranged person with a stun who bought the items that disabled the enemy team.

I'm not saying that didn't work; it did. But LoL isn't DotA anymore. They've taken supports and given them a meaningful gameplay style. That's where support is now and it works fine.

fEdit: Side note:
If you take all the utility out of Sona... she's nothing.
If you take away her auras, her healing, her movespeed.. and put them into items...you're taking Sona out of the game.

edit:
Support shouldn't need items or runes or masteries. That's what makes them so easy for new users. Utility doesn't need an overhaul. Nerfing base stats to increase late-game or make supports buy more items is not an issue.