This elo system is a failure

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Selcopa

Senior Member

11-25-2012

Let me rephrase it since you didn't catch it the first time.

I play support. I carry teams. I win games. That's the difference between me and you I win games that you don't know how to win. I can contribute more going 1/9 than you can going 10/2 because I know how to win. That is why I am higher elo. I play to win.

Still waiting on you to upload replays of you playing mediocre(what you call "good") but your team holding you down device


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Selcopa

Senior Member

11-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtEarthworm View Post
One thing I've noticed about all these thread saying the Elo system is broken are people saying they belong in a higher elo. If you truly do you will eventually get there. It may even just be that you play a bunch of normals before going into ranked again. I started off horribly in ranked in the middle S2, but now I'm on a win streak that started at the end of S2 after hundreds of games of normals were I just tried to have fun and get better without worrying about Elo.

I'm really beginning to think Elo Hell is more of an attitude than a place.

The other trend about these threads is they all say they belong higher. But offer no evidence other than "OMG LOOK AT MY KDA" none of them post replays

The ones who have added me and sent replays. Not one of them(over 50 different people, at least 150 replays total) have I felt belonged much higher if at all. And the more replays they send me. The more they consistently show me they lack the necessary skills to compete at whatever level they want to be at(they use the words think they should be at, but in reality it is where they want to be at)


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Incongruous

Member

11-26-2012

Yeah, keep your team's hopes up is actually very important - in solo queue, it's usually never over until it's over. In season 2, I rememeber having a jungle alistar who was 0/15, but I kept telling my team that we still had a chance. We caught their team out a few times in unfair fights which led to our Tristana getting fed and eventually winning the game. Even if your team is getting completely dominated in 5v5 fights, small skirmishes with uneven odds (or a last stand under the nexus turrets) can turn the game in your favor. Even in my elo, you'll find the odd guy wandering around the map sometimes for no apparent reason, or their team will be split in half when they're far ahead. It's solo queue :P


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ApackofPonies

Junior Member

11-26-2012

Its important too to try all roles. Limiting yourself to mid restricts the roles that others on the team can play. allowing everyone to get the champions they want also makes people more confident. WIth higher confidence often comes better play. I always start queue by saying ill play any role. Granted im only 1385, but im trying at least : D


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DizzyJ22

Member

11-26-2012

Yeah knowing at least how to play a few champs for each roll is necessary for successful team comp and an good game. Lots of people in elo hell tho dont play all rolls.......Mr "I only play ezreal" and his history is mostly losses with ezreal lmao, got matched with him twice -.-


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Tarabull

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Member

11-26-2012

I wouldn't mind seeing and single player rating system in the solo ranks. It only makes sense to me to have solo queue be based on personal performance and team participation. There are plenty of games where I will play a support, my preferred role, and do very well and still lose a game. Sometimes I do feel unappreciated for my thousands of gold in wards, and my 0/0/30 games.

But then again what do I know? I might just be talking out of spite for my 400 lost ranking and the constant ring of ragers saying "We lost because of your support." I may just feel unappreciated like I mentioned before. =) I would love to get out of a game and say "If I was so bad, why did my ELO go up?"

TL;DR: I need a hug. Ragers hurt my feelings. =(


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namora

Senior Member

11-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
The other trend about these threads is they all say they belong higher. But offer no evidence other than "OMG LOOK AT MY KDA" none of them post replays

The ones who have added me and sent replays. Not one of them(over 50 different people, at least 150 replays total) have I felt belonged much higher if at all. And the more replays they send me. The more they consistently show me they lack the necessary skills to compete at whatever level they want to be at(they use the words think they should be at, but in reality it is where they want to be at)
The play-style necessary at 900-1100 elo vastly different than at 1800 elo or even 1400 elo, so posting a replay of a game at 900 elo isn't going to show you anything unless you look at their play as compared to their allies and opponents. The current rating system does an individual rating of 1:1 when you're playing a team game trying to individually rate 1:9 players, which should essentially be a free-for-all for a more "fair" rating system or to better rate individual skill. The system for solo/duo queue is flawed. There is no denying that. Period. The rating system for ranked teams is no where near as inefficient, because you're playing a 5:5(or 3:3) team game which correlates with the 1:1 system. Not to mention there are significantly less instances of d/cs or afks and trolls.

To say that you didn't find a single replay where they couldn't have done better is most likely absolutely true, but you're intentionally ignoring the fact that even at 1800+ elo you can find 50 players who make mistakes that they can improve upon, the difference is you won't find as many people who believe they should be higher. 900-1300 is generally the entry point of of new players to the ranked system. Being as such, new players and any new trolls, leavers, and d/cers come in around these areas and can drag players down(1:9 reference). This is what is refered to as elo hell, and ~65% of our ranked population for solo/duo queue stay/join in this region. It is also the main reason for repeated crying.

There are some solutions that come to mind(personally) when looking at this issue.
1. Riot could restructure the game for solo/duo queue's, so that they are actual solo/duo queues(I.E 1v1s or 2v2s to follow suite with the way the rating system).
2. Riot could attempt to restructure the current elo system to evaluate more precisely the skill of each individual player inside their team based on KDA(I.E This player carried their team with the highest KA: D ratio, but they lost, so this player loses less rating than the player with KA: D below him, and such for the player below him, and so on. This applies to gained rating on the winning team as well).
3. Riot could inhibit the difference between the amount of games played amongst commonly rated players to 5 games(this would mean that if you've played 50 games you will be put together with players who have played between 45 and 55 games around your elo). This would also increase queue times.


Edit1:cleaning up my essay.
Edit2: The weird smiley faces...


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Selcopa

Senior Member

11-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by namora View Post
The play-style necessary at 900-1100 elo vastly different than at 1800 elo or even 1400 elo, so posting a replay of a game at 900 elo isn't going to show you anything unless you look at their play as compared to their allies and opponents.
This is a common misconception. What happens is they see a smurf account play very aggression vs low elo players. And more and more passive as they move up. People then assume that you must play more passive going up

What they fail to realize is less lane mistakes are being made. Had the player made more mistakes during lane (and trust me. I've made this mistakes during lane) they will play very aggressive and take advantage of that edge. They aren't more passive. They're more patient
Quote:
The current rating system does an individual rating of 1:1 when you're playing a team game trying to individually rate 1:9 players, which should essentially be a free-for-all for a more "fair" rating system or to better rate individual skill. The system for solo/duo queue is flawed. There is no denying that. Period. The rating system for ranked teams is no where near as inefficient, because you're playing a 5:5(or 3:3) team game which correlates with the 1:1 system. Not to mention there are significantly less instances of d/cs or afks and trolls.
I don't agree its flawed in the sense that there is a better system. I think the elo system is one of the best evaluations of skill that any mechanical system has ever been developed. Specifically for 5v5. You can cite instances where it doesn't always work. The fact is no one has shown a high elo caliber player that is stuck at low elo. High players move up. Low players move down
Quote:
To say that you didn't find a single replay where they couldn't have done better is most likely absolutely true, but you're intentionally ignoring the fact that even at 1800+ elo you can find 50 players who make mistakes that they can improve upon, the difference is you won't find as many people who believe they should be higher. 900-1300 is generally the entry point of of new players to the ranked system. Being as such, new players and any new trolls, leavers, and d/cers come in around these areas and can drag players down(1:9 reference). This is what is refered to as elo hell, and ~65% of our ranked population for solo/duo queue stay/join in this region. It is also the main rea
You misunderstand what I said. When I said I've seen that many replays and thought they could improve. It didn't stop there. Not only did they make mistakes. But had they not made this mistakes(usually if they fixed less than half the.mistakes) they would have won. That's why there is no elo hell. The game was winnable. In 150 replays less than 10 I felt wererent winnable. They just played bad


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m0dified

Member

11-29-2012

I'm not saying I personally belong in a higher ELO, but I can see how the system may be flawed in some respects, when my thumb heals, I'll post some replays up of my attempt to get out of ELO hell and you can critique me god knows i just face palm a lot these days


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namora

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
This is a common misconception. What happens is they see a smurf account play very aggression vs low elo players. And more and more passive as they move up. People then assume that you must play more passive going up

What they fail to realize is less lane mistakes are being made. Had the player made more mistakes during lane (and trust me. I've made this mistakes during lane) they will play very aggressive and take advantage of that edge. They aren't more passive. They're more patient

I don't agree its flawed in the sense that there is a better system. I think the elo system is one of the best evaluations of skill that any mechanical system has ever been developed. Specifically for 5v5. You can cite instances where it doesn't always work. The fact is no one has shown a high elo caliber player that is stuck at low elo. High players move up. Low players move down


You misunderstand what I said. When I said I've seen that many replays and thought they could improve. It didn't stop there. Not only did they make mistakes. But had they not made this mistakes(usually if they fixed less than half the.mistakes) they would have won. That's why there is no elo hell. The game was winnable. In 150 replays less than 10 I felt wererent winnable. They just played bad

First off, I never stated anything about aggression and passivity or patience. I merely stated that the difference in play style is vastly different and as such needs to be viewed differently. If you want to go into this detail, low elo players do generally make more mistakes and play aggressively and higher elo players are more disciplined and experienced while making less mistakes. Low elo players will generally* jump on every mistake made at the risk of making one of their own. Higher elo players are disciplined enough to wait for you to make the right mistake, and experienced enough to know what it will look like, therefore capitalizing on their profit. In low elo players, you're looking for who managed to capitalize on mistakes and make few of their own. In higher elo players, it's already done and so you have to look at them in comparison to their allies/opponents.


In a 5v5 team game, the rating system works efficiently, but solo/duo queue are not the same as a 5v5 team. This bolded statement right here is why I won't continue this section. This elo system is only the best for 1:1 situations and solo/duo queue have more dimensions than that.

I italicized the only important part of what you said in that section, because it's different than what you said previously.

I'd also like to ask a hypothetical question. If at your elo, 2 players who are duo queueing happen to find themselves in a situation where there is an emergency(for all intensive purpose let this emergency be legitimate, such as the house is on fire) they must attend to during the game. They leave and you're sitting at 3v5 against formidable opponents(who are rated near your level). What are your chances of winning, on the assumption that nothing is impossible?

Edit: unfortunately, the spacing I did to mirror indentation did not work for these posts so I have subjugated them into their own sections.