Frozen Fist discussion

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TB Once

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I'm worried because the champions most likely to benefit from this item don't really need the help. Not to mention perma-slow is incredibly frustrating to play against. We'll see how it turns out.
This. I feel like this item lacks direction.

I wonder what the design intent was behind creating this; it is meant to give AP bruisers more build options? (Diana, Elise), or is it meant to help AP mages counter bruisers and assassins? I have a feeling that it will result in the latter. Since ranged attacks proc the Spellblade slow at the same % as melee attacks, mages can use this to reliably peel/kite away from danger that they currently are not able to. What this means is that bruisers will actually have a HARDER time reaching them now.

A standard encounter would go like this:

1. Brand initiates his entire full combo on enemy team; activating all of his cooldowns.
2. Realizing this, an assassin or bruiser champion from the other team attacks him, in the attempt to finish off the squishy mage before his cooldowns refresh.
3. Brand simply takes reduced damage, since he has 60 armor from Frozen Fist, and can now DISENGAGE with a mere autoattack.

I just foresee this item being used in very different ways than what it was originally designed.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

11-21-2012

This item will really make Cassiopeia the kiting queen.


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N49

Senior Member

11-21-2012

IMO it should lose the slow and gain something different instead.

Perhaps a mana scaling on the bonus damage? But then there's Ryze...


Maybe instead of Frozen Fist, we could get a Giant's Gauntlet: Sheen + Giant's Belt => Stats + % of your HP as damage on hit after an ability.


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MoldyOnions

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Someone built this on Ezreal in a game on SR and he was almost completely untouchable unless your flash was up and his was down or someone managed to sneak around behind him. It definitely has a lot of potential abuse cases on some ranged champions.


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Infirc

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

It seems like a good alternative totriforce for champions that dont really need it, i'm sure i'll be getting ths on Elise a lot when it comes ou so that i can stay into the fray in spider form for a bit longer, maybe Poppy too, but Poppy has far more excuses to use triforce

Quote:
Originally Posted by oncewasblind View Post
This. I feel like this item lacks direction.
What this means is that bruisers will actually have a HARDER time reaching them now.

A standard encounter would go like this:

1. Brand initiates his entire full combo on enemy team; activating all of his cooldowns.
2. Realizing this, an assassin or bruiser champion from the other team attacks him, in the attempt to finish off the squishy mage before his cooldowns refresh.
3. Brand simply takes reduced damage, since he has 60 armor from Frozen Fist, and can now DISENGAGE with a mere autoattack.

I just foresee this item being used in very different ways than what it was originally designed.

Well what do you expect? EVERY bruiser out there has a 4cd Jumping tool to stick to you like glue and they don't even need more than one jump to kill those champions that actually want to kite i mean they want to kite for a reason.. Jump 2 shot Spam trollface emotes


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Krampus Claus

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoldyOnions View Post
Someone built this on Ezreal in a game on SR and he was almost completely untouchable unless your flash was up and his was down or someone managed to sneak around behind him. It definitely has a lot of potential abuse cases on some ranged champions.
Not to specifically single out this quote, but people seem to forget that this item costs 3400. Many of the champs they think it will break, it will in fact not:

On an ADC, you are better off rushing an IE, PD or BT for damage, No ranged carry should ever build this item.

On an AP carry, you are better off rushing deathcap or RoA for damage, than this item for utility and a mere 40 AP. Ryze would benefit the most from this in theory, but in practice he gets very little from sheen procs, and the extra 1.9k gold (difference b/w this item and glacial shroud) would be better spend elsewhere.

You're going to see this item mostly on tanks and bruisers who benefit some from AP and/or who already have high base offensive stats such that blowing 3400 on this item wont put them behind. The champ who will be the MOST terrifying with this item is, of course, The Champ himself: Jax.

But more AA based bruisers who have less spammable abilities will probably be better off spending their gold on the newly buffed frozen mallet and atma's impaler (jarvan, shyvanna).

All in all, this is a balanced item: on paper, the utility it gives is scary, but in practice, it's prohibitively high cost keeps it out of the hands of many truly terrifying champs.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

11-21-2012

I'm confused why any AD champion would purchase this item when they already have Phage/Mallet option for a permanent slow, that actually offers some AD.

It seems silly to me to suggest that champions like Hecarim or Nasus would ever want to purchase this item when they either already have a means to consistently slow/stick to targets, or need AD and HP far more than a boatload of mana. I think it amusing to suggest any AD bruiser would drop 3400g on an AP item, when most of those bruisers, again, have no problem with sticking to a target and/or issues with mana. '

Many of the champions suggested in this thread so far, really have no problem sticking to targets. Kassadin? Lulu? Blitzcrank? Maokai? ...SKARNER!? Do these guys really have a hard time sticking to anything? Even Jax... why would he take this over Triforce?

So that really begs the question, "Who is this item really made for?" That being said, Blitzcrank is about the only champion that may really love this as a supplement to his Muramana and Frozen Heart. Realize that this item is competing with the other Sheen items as well, Lichbane and Triforce.

Keep in mind, we're looking at this item in a vacuum right now. I'm really interested to see how the sweeping itemization changes affect Dominion from a balance state. I have high hopes, actually. I'm really excited about what Mercurial Scimitar will do for ADC champions.


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Poush

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Maybe the % slow should decay over time to avoid the case of a perma slow. And a lot of champs can benefit from this item, mostly those bruisers that built trinity for the passive and phage proc. Also I hope Riot go and delete Jax, he makes tons of items problematics. (New guinsoo, new hextech gunblade active, etc). Btw, this item is actually great on Jarvan, making ur engage even better with a double-slow. (combined with black cleaver you throw a 48% armor debuff and about 45% slow total)


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
Yorick, Kassadin, Urgot, and Lulu will all love this item, just saying--it gives them all what they need---mana, CDR, and the ability to stick to or kite their target indefinitely.

Don't think this should be added.
Got it in a nutshell. The situation will be FAR worse than the current BFT situation, which ascends strong champions to top tier and low champions to decent. Frozen fist will just ascend already top tier champions to an beyond untouchable status.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

11-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronicleX View Post
Got it in a nutshell. The situation will be FAR worse than the current BFT situation, which ascends strong champions to top tier and low champions to decent. Frozen fist will just ascend already top tier champions to an beyond untouchable status.
I'm not sure I understand. Like I said, Yorick, Lulu, and Urgot already have the ability to permaslow. Why would Yorick and Urgot take that over Triforce? Lulu already has an AoE permaslow with max CDR and doesn't need that over other CDR options.

Kassadin, maybe, but again he has no problem with sticking to targets. The passive deals physical damage, of which he has no armor pen to capitalize on. So, why would he take this over the larger CDR item that is Frozen Heart? He could take both... but stacking mana and armor leaves him vulnerable with a low HP pool and little MR. If your answer to that is, "Well he can use all that mana to stack Rift Walks and doesn't need to stick around with his low pool of HP!" Well if he's not sticking around, he's not auto-attacking and making use of the passive. His AoE slow is already powerful enough for getting in and getting out.