Question about Lee Sin and Gunblade

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TalLavi

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Senior Member

11-19-2012

First question, why do people always max W second?
When I jungle Lee I usually go R>Q>E>W because with both Q and E maxed I got pretty good burst and it helps me with killing lanes, I really dont see a reason in putting any more points in W because I get the utility at 1 point and the rest of the stats aren't really helping since I dont find myself in a 1v1 situation most of the time.

Second question, whats up with Gunblade?
Lets see what its made of:
Bilgewater Cutlass (1825) 35AD + 15% Lifesteal
Hextech Revoler (1200) 40AP + 12%Spellvamp

Gunblade 40AD + 70AP + 15% Lifesteal + 20% Spell vamp (600)

Why is it that Hextech gets almost double the stats for while its the less dominant item (cheaper) while Cutlass gets nothing Lifesteal wise and for the cost of 600 gold you get 5AD and a bonus damage (that no one uses) on the active?

I remember Gunblade being nerfed at the Akali is OP time and it being stacked on dominion, but I really think they should revisit it.

1) Less AP more AD, No AP champions are going to buy it, the only people who buy this are hybrid champs like Jax or Akali.
The reason is that most AP champs have no AD scaling worth mentioning, while on the other hand, Lost of AD bruisers have some sort of AP stat hiding in the Kit like Lee Sin's safe guard or Jayce's Lightning field, so I think it should get a small remake into a more AD Bruiser oriented item for Champs who can benefit from the AD and can use that extra drop of AP.

I am thinking something along the line of 60AD and 50 AP, 20% lifesteal and 15% spellvamp.

2) Making the active useful. while the slow is a great utility tool. the damage isn't worth mentioning.

I say nerf the base damage to 300~350 and add an AD+AP ratio to the active, If not you can just remove the active itself, no one will miss it and it might solve some problems with it.

I hope Riot reads this, I think I might post the Gunblade thing at the S3 items thread.


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Glow Flies

Senior Member

11-19-2012

The active is incredibly useful, learn how to use it.


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CarryMyNuts

Senior Member

11-19-2012

U must be new

Edit: I read the whole thing now, its still broken with akali.


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TalLavi

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Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glow Flies View Post
The active is incredibly useful, learn how to use it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalLavi View Post
Making the active useful. while the slow is a great utility tool.
I said that the Active slow is a great utility tool I guess saying "Making the active useful" is an exaggeration but one of the ways to drive a point home is exaggerating a little bit

The active is super useful, its like a free exhaust slow and its a great ganking item for junglers .
I am always surprised at why junglers dont buy Cutlass because it has everything a jungler needs, sustain damage and a free CC for ganking.


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TalLavi

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Senior Member

11-19-2012

Ok so I just got a glimpse of the S3 Gunblade and I noticed they changed a little bit of it.

Item Cost: 2965
Recipe Cost: 275
+45 Attack Damage +65 Ability Power +10% Life Steal +20% Spell Vamp
UNIQUE Passive: Your basic attacks and single target spells against champions reduce the cooldown of this item by 3 seconds.
UNIQUE Active: Deals 150 + 40% of your Ability Power as magic damage and slows target champion's Movement Speed by 40% for 2 seconds - 60 second cooldown.

While they did move 5 points from AP to AD, its still super AP focused (Active scaling of AP) and they nerfed the Lifesteal you get but not the spellvamp.

I really think it should go more torwards the AD side even more so because it now builds from a Pickaxe AND a Long sword.

55AD and 50AP 15% lifesteal and 15% spellvamp with the passive getting double scaling of 0.4AP ratio and 0.5AD ratio?

Again I really think it should be more AD focused since no AP champ is going to buy a gunblade but it can benefit so many Bruiser and Hybrid champs can still use it.


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Ntrer1cal

Senior Member

11-19-2012

There is nothing wrong with maxing E second, but the rationale for maxing W is that his sustain goes up, his survivability goes up, his utility goes up. Also in the current jungle, junglers don't get very many levels, and you will be almost 35 minutes in with a level 2 shield (80 hp yay!) if you max E second. Basically an E max makes him much squishier but helps snowball. Like a Lee Sin that maxes E second who is even/behind the other jungler is essentially useless to his team. I say max E if you are already FAR ahead, otherwise W is a much better option for its utility.


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AnimusvsAnima

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Seriously? The reason Gunblade has it's stats is AP and AD scale so much differently. AD applies to both abilities that scale with AD and auto-attacks. The active scales with AP cause it encourages the person to buy hybrid items to make the active more useful. And apparently, you don't understand that spellvamp =/= AP damage. It's all abilities.


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TalLavi

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Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntrer1cal View Post
There is nothing wrong with maxing E second, but the rationale for maxing W is that his sustain goes up, his survivability goes up, his utility goes up. Also in the current jungle, junglers don't get very many levels, and you will be almost 35 minutes in with a level 2 shield (80 hp yay!) if you max E second. Basically an E max makes him much squishier but helps snowball. Like a Lee Sin that maxes E second who is even/behind the other jungler is essentially useless to his team. I say max E if you are already FAR ahead, otherwise W is a much better option for its utility.
Thanks, that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimusvsAnima View Post
Seriously? The reason Gunblade has it's stats is AP and AD scale so much differently. AD applies to both abilities that scale with AD and auto-attacks. The active scales with AP cause it encourages the person to buy hybrid items to make the active more useful. And apparently, you don't understand that spellvamp =/= AP damage. It's all abilities.
Lets adress each issue individually.

I understand how AD is different then AP since it scales with your items, but I am just saying that Gunblade is aimed at Hybrid champs with focus on AP, all I am saying is lets make it focus on Hybrid champs and AD, this way Bruisers can also benefit from it.

Now lets look at the new S3 lifesteal items.
Vamp gives 10%, Bilgewater gives 10%, Gunblade gives 10%.
Dont you think that after 2 upgrades you should get a little extra on the Lifesteal?, same goes damage wise.

Pick Axe + Long sword gives 35 AD, I guess there is no point in arguing here since each upgrade gives an extra 5 AD, but I really think giving Gunblade that extra 5 and rounding it up to 50 will make it an AD worthy item as far as you pay - you get.

Lets look at the AP now, 1200 for 40AP and then when you add another 600 for recipe you get an add 30!, 30AP for 600 gold.

Same with spell vamp, from 12% -> 20% for only 600 gold!

And the active, if they switch it to a dual / AD scaling you suddenly get an extremly viable Bruiser 3rd~ item, Trinity GA and Gunblade suddenly make so much sense because you are closing in on 100AP so it will probably do nice on those AP ratio's you have somewhere in your kit, you get nice lifesteal and spell vamp and a cool active.

So I really think just doing 3 small things will make this item more then just a hybrid item for 3 champs, but a very good situational choice for an item
1) 45->50 AD
2) 10->15 Lifesteal
3) Dual ratio on passive or AD ratio.

If Riot wants they can nerf the spell vamp to 15% this way Akali and Jax wont be as strong a pick as they are now healing tons of HP on each skill and Bruisers wont be swimming in Spellvamp, also this wont be a mandatory item on bruisers since it comes with a good load of AP that will hurt them but I can see people picking up Cutlass early on and if they get to it upgrading it to Gunblade.

Now that we have Blade of the ruined king I guess Cutlass is more viable but I really think people should also give its other upgrade a shot.


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Bless

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Maxing w vs e second is situational choice and just comes down to how the game is going, pretty self explanatory, no one way is right, especially not on a champ as versatile as lee sin.

I like building bilgewater some games, it's a cheap damage item that's well priced imo. I play top lee (nearly 300 soloq games last season with him) and find it works especially well vs lanes like vlad/singed/nidalee where you need to stick to them and be able to match their healing/sustain. It's somewhat of a middleground between wriggles and bloodthirster, where you might be wasting the armor vs the ap lane, and you don't necessarily want to drop 3k on a damage item as you still need to build resists/hp. I almost never upgrade it into gunblade unless it's a lolstomp game, usually end up selling it when I need a 6th item. Overall bilgewater is a solid midgame item, great price for the stats + superb utility it provides.


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Olek Skilgannon

Senior Member

11-19-2012

You get W on Lee Sin for the bonus armor, lifesteal and spellvamp. This is your sustain. W W Q R Q with auto 2 autos between those, leads to a lot of healing. The shield bonus and armor will help vs. the majority of most team compositions where they run AD bruiser, AD carry and usually have a jungler dealing physical damage as well.

The active on gunblade is EXTREMELY useful and has pretty decent range to it.


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