Current Conditions of Blackfire Torch and Wooglet's Cap

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Redenbacher

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cauldrath View Post
Why would someone like Jax, Hecarim, Poppy, or Skarner have BFT and Triforce? Because they want to deal a lot of damage without spending a lot of gold on it?

There seems to be a lot of people assuming BFT is only good on AP champs. It actually is pretty bad on some AP champs when compared to how good it is on a lot of bruisers. (I wouldn't build nerfed BFT on Xerath, Morgana, or Veigar, for instance, who are all in pretty bad shape to begin with.)
And why would they want to deal 3.5% of max HP damage over two seconds when they could add other damage items that increase their damage by significantly more than 3.5% of max HP over two seconds against all except the tankiest champions.

Against a 2000 HP target, before MR, 3.5% is 70 damage. Over two seconds. That's an additional 35 damage per second (while charges are available). For 2800 gold, I can name a number of items that would offer better returns on your investment as far as DPS goes. For example, Last Whisper.


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Last Whisper provides nothing except for damage. BFT gives you health and CDR (which is damage and utility). You're also disregarding the damage increase from magic pen, which is ironic, since you suggested a penetration item as the alternative. So, subtract the value of all those things from the item, and then make a more reasonable comparison.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

11-26-2012

Last Whisper was one example, not the only example of what you can do with 2800g to compete with BFT. I know there is penetration on the item, but I'm not going to look at the single item in a vacuum. It doesn't give 100% penetration, and it is incredibly difficult to reach that mark without significant sacrifices in other areas of your build (such as survivability).

I'm not going to hold your hand and do a cost-benefit analysis of every item in the game, all I'm trying to do is suggest that this item isn't the end-all-be-all of items in the game. There are so many assumptions made here, looking at BFT in a vacuum. It's silly. I think the idea of an AD or AP bruiser or assassin (Poppy) building this item for it's passive is silly. That's not to say it doesn't have some good stats elsewhere, but let's wait and see what happens when the entire itemization of all the game modes is flipped on it's head.

Stupid question: Have you seen how many items are changing and will be added? If everything from the PBE goes live, the next set of patch notes is going to be a very long read. After it's nerf, BFT is going to be the least of our worries.


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RisenApathy

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Junior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I think there's two separate problems here.
1. Teemo is silly (live team knows)
2. BFT is overpowered

BFT is already getting a nerf. You knew that! But Wooglet's is not, and I've yet to see a compelling argument for its removal/remake aside from it being too stat-efficient--which is the whole point of the item. It's still built out of NLR, which is a huge chunk of gold you'll need to save up on Dominion (meanwhile, those bruisers have Phage+ already). It was clear with S2 that most mages were unable to compete given SR's level of gold efficiency on their items, so both Wooglet's and BFT are intended to address this issue. Neither item was balanced for S3 though--they were made in isolation, though both should fit in quite well given the similar design direction for all upcoming items.
These two items simply itemized AP champs with two legendary items at once. Once maxed out in items it is the same as competing with a champion with 7 slots worth of items.

A suggestion: Create newer items with a tweak in stats. A comparison easily seen with Madred's Bloodrazor and Kitae's Bloodrazor or The Bloodthirster and Sanguine Blade.

Have Dominion exclusive items as they were before. We understand the Twisted Treeline patch made it so matches do not last an hour due to turtles just waiting at base. But to bring these two items to Dominion has thrown this mode terribly unbalanced. Magic Resistance is hard enough to build as it is without sacrificing power.


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grimunk

Junior Member

11-27-2012

<quote>Have Dominion exclusive items as they were before.</quote>

This would be madness. I stopped playing dominion because my fav toon has it bad in dom. BFT and wooglet's makes it more like I'm on an equal footing because it actually grants me some survivability. I was getting sick of seeing Jax or Panth or any of the usual bruisers having an easy time something going 1vs2 and winning. I'm betting that most of the backlash is from players of those strong-at-everything characters now having to work a little for those kills vs mages.

However, if anything had to be adjusted to BFT, I'd day the DoT is nice, but not needed. I'd rather see it give maybe a bit more HP. HG really was screaming to be built into something, it was an okay item for mid game but it was a dead end, and mages didn't need a dead-end item.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by grimunk View Post
Pro BFT/Wooglets stuff
A Veigar player, eh?
Yeah, you've had it rough. I don't blame you for that sentiment.

Here's the thing. I have nothing against Wooglets.
As a matter of fact, I think that Witchcap is a fantastic item that fits into Dominion perfectly without being over *or* underpowered.

However, Blackfire Torch is another story.
I'm fine with the base stats, but the burn is completely broken on champions that have built-in DoTs, like Brand, Swain, and most specifically Teemo.

The passive DoT pushes Blackfire Torch over the edge from being a strong item into supreme overpowered territory which is completely abusive on Teemo and the like, and that is what everyone is complaining about.

I personally think that the passive should just be removed and the rest of Blackfire Torch left as-is, and it would still be a perfectly viable item that would fit nicely into the core builds of most mages.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

11-29-2012

I can't believe they are trying to increase AP mage viability through adding a few OP items, which is exactly what Nome said.

This is a terrible way of doing it since it means all APs take these items blindly, which is the exact opposite of the item/build diversity that Riot wants.

These items are also significantly better for certain champs than others, which creates a power-level disparity.
As we all know, Teemo gains TONS of AP-worth on the BFT passive effect. Its way too good on him and works great with his Poke-with-1-spell-and-wait approach.
Meanwhile a Leblanc gains hardly any benefit from BFT's passive since she tosses all her spells in a big combo, thus only having 1 passive proc for 4 spells cast.


If they want to increase caster viability some, simply adjust the global effects. Add a bigger magic penetration% or flat % to the Aura. Add some free starting AP or AP per level or AP over time effect. There's several options here.
Forcing everyone to take 2 OP items while leaving the other stuff to be unused is awful design.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

11-29-2012

...which is why they are nerfing the item.

Outside of map-specific champion balance, itemization is the only way to balance the champion classes.

If an item is a cut above the rest, you nerf the stats to bring it in-line with the rest. That increases build diversity. No one is forcing any one to take OP items. BFT is/was an experiment to see what it will take to make mages more viable in Dominion.

Global effects aren't a great option. Similar to the global arpen aura helping AD bruisers, the global mpen aura helps AP bruisers.


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Das Strychnine

Senior Member

11-29-2012

I could make a similar post about how Frozen Heart and Randuins shuts down AD Carries or how Maw of Malmortius pretty much gives you a free giants belt.

l0l AP champs OP, nerf teemo plox


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

11-29-2012

Nome already discussed the issue of limited OP items.

See: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...55155#31055155
and
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...63220#31063220

Quote:
They're going to be "must-buys" only because there's a lack of itemization options. I've said it a few times before, but this is going to be a slow project. These AP item changes are the first step. S3 will be the next step. We'll evaluate where to proceed from there.
Quote:
The AP item changes are set to do a few things.
1. Inch the general Dominion populace towards better purchasing habits.
2. Act as a transition to Season 3.
3. Test the waters for how imbalanced AP really has to be to see broader viability.
EDIT: Oh, and I wanted to address this misconception:

Quote:
Global effects aren't a great option. Similar to the global arpen aura helping AD bruisers, the global mpen aura helps AP bruisers.
Free % armor and magic penetration benefit champions who do not build armor or mr more than champions that do. So, the aura is actually more beneficial to squishies than to bruisers. The reason that purchased armor/magic pen is better for bruisers is because they don't get as much pre-mitigation damage from items relative to their base damage when compared to non-bruisers. There is an opportunity cost for items, but not for the aura.