Current Conditions of Blackfire Torch and Wooglet's Cap

First Riot Post
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Mindllapse

Senior Member

11-19-2012

wooglet's is fine

yes it's an incredible item that outshines everything else (other than BFT) but bruisers in dominion outshine everything else to begin with

nerf BFT and keep wooglets as is


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Quintic

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I think there's two separate problems here.
1. Teemo is silly (live team knows)
2. BFT is overpowered

BFT is already getting a nerf. You knew that! But Wooglet's is not, and I've yet to see a compelling argument for its removal/remake aside from it being too stat-efficient--which is the whole point of the item. It's still built out of NLR, which is a huge chunk of gold you'll need to save up on Dominion (meanwhile, those bruisers have Phage+ already). It was clear with S2 that most mages were unable to compete given SR's level of gold efficiency on their items, so both Wooglet's and BFT are intended to address this issue. Neither item was balanced for S3 though--they were made in isolation, though both should fit in quite well given the similar design direction for all upcoming items.
I appreciate the response, Nome

In hindsight, yeah, I can see Wooglet's fitting in fine with the new items. Stat reduction on Torch would be fine, but I am also concerned about how the passive is currently activated.

Is there any news on that?


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Tylerpb

Senior Member

11-20-2012

BFT wouldn't be a problem if it were only in the hands of traditional type mages. It's only the way it is interacting with singed, amumu, teemo, brand etc. that is taking it to the level of OP.

It could also probably lose some CDR without breaking anything.


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The Bitterness

Senior Member

11-21-2012

I think it's interesting and, if I can be forgiven for saying this, very telling that RiotNome hasn't responded to my quotation of and response to his post.

-Twisted Treeline is in Beta yet still sees a Ranked mode while Dominion is considered not balanced enough for Ranked, yet Dominion is admittedly more balanced in some very important ways;
-the Dominion community, admittedly, recognise several important aspects about the game mechanics before the Summoer's Rift community;
-Blackfire Torch was intended to, admittedly, boost Mage performance on Summoner's Rift....yet it hasn't shown up there and has caused serious problems to play on Dominion.

RiotNome, it's remarkably frustrating to see comments like yours not checked and left for all to see. You simply can't make these kinds of statements and then not respond to people's concerns in relation to them. Yes, I'm sure that there are a wealth of posts directed at you each and every day and you can't possibly get to them all...but it would be great it you could take the time to get to these concerns.

Based on what I've read of your posts in these two specific areas and concerning BFT's impact on Dominion, it looks like you're not at all interested in Dominion proper but in Dominion as a SR testing ground. I can be wrong and I hope that I am, I hope that you've just misspoke or didn't provide enough clarity, but as it stands this is how I'm forced to take it.

It's very, very frustrating.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

11-21-2012

BFT was designed for TT, not SR.

TBH, I think TT has Ranked because it's been grandfathered in, and removing it will cause issues. Unrest. It's more significant than never giving Ranked to a mode that didn't have it yet.

Also, they said, and you said as well - TT is in beta, Ranked, especially before the end of the season probably did a lot to get more people to play the mode, so more feedback could be collected, though I too find it a bit problematic on the rewards given front.
Dominion, is less in need of a beta, is thus also less likely to get ranked, but it doesn't get ranked because they don't feel it's necessarily ready, but the only way to be sure if it's ready or not is likely to get an influx of new testing, which could happen by way of ranked. These are just words, they don't really matter. Either we'll get ranked or we won't.
TT has ranked.

What does looking at them in this manner and this comparison is going to achieve? The convinced are convinced. This particular issue is meaningless for discussion right now, it had already been discussed. Better find new avenues to blaze, on the road to ranked, or on getting Dominion better, regardless of ranked.

Also, the incessant posting about ranked in threads that don't deal with ranked is derailing them, and is poisonous to holding any serious discourse on this forum. Please contain such discussions to threads that had been made to discuss this issue to begin with.


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Wawix

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Senior Member

11-21-2012

Confirmed, Dominion is the "Live PBE".


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Tinbat

Junior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
While I appreciate your analysis here, Quintic, I have to agree with the other posters. Nome made it very clear that the new AP items were likely going to be too powerful, but he did that on purpose.

The first version of BFT was too weak, and was laughed at.

The second version of BFT is too strong, and is scoffed at.

Nome, and his team, have had a chance to evaluate both extremes in a live setting, and the third version will likely be much closer to a balanced state.

Unlike SR, Nome's team doesn't really have the luxury to test things out on the PBE because the Dominion playerbase there is so small. They are trying these things out in the preseason to bring some clarity as to where power is really needed, and how. They have little choice but to test it on us.

What did I do after getting crushed by BFT? I dusted off Brand and finally got to play him in TT. I enjoyed watching AP champions actually do something useful again in Dominion. I relished in the fact that things are finally changing.

Look. We, the Dominion community, have been begging for change since the last Dominion patch some months ago. We've been bellyaching, whining, complaining, giving constructive feedback, etc. Nome and team are finally shaking things up, and what are you doing? You started with constructive feedback on a topic that has many threads already, and are now devolving in to whining about being a guinea pig.

Be happy things are happening. Contribute to the threads that are already there. Give this awesome, well constructed feedback on other topics, too.
^ this

(Oh hai, you sir...are what i was thinking in my head...GET OUT OF MY HEAD! AAAAAH...but no really, get out of my head <(0.0)>...)


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hinderlopen

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bitterness View Post
In a separate thread about BFT, you've agreed that the Dom community recognises several things well ahead of our SR counterparts and mainly because SR has a more PvE-oriented focus while Dom is just the opposite.

You simply cannot contend that BFT is intended to address Mage efficiency issues on SR when the item doesn't currently appear on SR and is causing severe problems on Dominion. Dominion, as you've rightly pointed out in other posts, is a playing field where it's about PvP and gold is a relative non-issue in comparison to SR. This means that Mages in Dom are already in, all things considered, a decent place and introducing BFT grossly upsets that balance.

You also cannot contend that BFT was made in isolation and not, to be fair to your argument, strictly intended for S3. The community has looked at this item and wondered if it saw any real testing because its power is remarkably apparent as soon as it's acquired. It's quite clear that the item was made in isolation and, at the risk of sounding a bit aggressive, there is a body of people wondering if it was even tested. After all, how could such a blatantly over-powered item make it through testing?

Unlike Summoner's Rift, Dominion is about PvP. Don't get me wrong, Summoner's Rift takes its own particular set of skills and I'm not trying to disparage it. What I'm getting at and what you've said yourself is that Dom is really and truly about PvP and BFT is, from what you're saying, an item that is intended for a more PvE-oriented game like Summoner's Rift. In that case there is no reason why BFT should be on Dominion and even less of a reason why we should be waiting for it to be 'nerfed' for Dominion when it doesn't belong and wasn't meant to address Mages on Dominion.

I think you are greatly misunderstanding what Nome said, specifically "It was clear with S2 that most mages were unable to compete given SR's level of gold efficiency on their items."

Every item has a certain level of gold efficiency for the stats they give, some items are more efficient than others. The AP items in dominion were designed for SR, so they had to take into account the amount of gold that AP mids get and what they can do with the stats during teamfights and keep AP mids from being way out of control. So AP items have been less efficient than bruiser items because they need to be that way in SR.


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chide da jungler

Senior Member

11-24-2012

riot has not learned its lesson on the topic of %dmg effects on items. once you have the Mpen the dmg cannot be mitigated.


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IIZekoII

Senior Member

11-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I think there's two separate problems here.
1. Teemo is silly (live team knows)
2. BFT is overpowered

BFT is already getting a nerf. You knew that! But Wooglet's is not, and I've yet to see a compelling argument for its removal/remake aside from it being too stat-efficient--which is the whole point of the item. It's still built out of NLR, which is a huge chunk of gold you'll need to save up on Dominion (meanwhile, those bruisers have Phage+ already). It was clear with S2 that most mages were unable to compete given SR's level of gold efficiency on their items, so both Wooglet's and BFT are intended to address this issue. Neither item was balanced for S3 though--they were made in isolation, though both should fit in quite well given the similar design direction for all upcoming items.
BFT should not proc DoTs.... and it could use a little nerf in power too..
Deathcap is ok and it was a good thing for AP in dominion but the only thing is the cdr on the invul.. it's a little too short right now for how the game works in dominion.