Current Conditions of Blackfire Torch and Wooglet's Cap

First Riot Post
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Cherryboy916

Junior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volandum View Post
Are you aware that a nerf for Blackfire torch is already planned and being executed?
Isnt it just the stats being nerfed and not the dot? cuz the dot is what is breaking the item


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Snoop Nome

Game Designer

11-19-2012
1 of 1 Riot Posts

I think there's two separate problems here.
1. Teemo is silly (live team knows)
2. BFT is overpowered

BFT is already getting a nerf. You knew that! But Wooglet's is not, and I've yet to see a compelling argument for its removal/remake aside from it being too stat-efficient--which is the whole point of the item. It's still built out of NLR, which is a huge chunk of gold you'll need to save up on Dominion (meanwhile, those bruisers have Phage+ already). It was clear with S2 that most mages were unable to compete given SR's level of gold efficiency on their items, so both Wooglet's and BFT are intended to address this issue. Neither item was balanced for S3 though--they were made in isolation, though both should fit in quite well given the similar design direction for all upcoming items.


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Infirc

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Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintic View Post
To add a little bit of math, here's the stat breakdown of Blackfire Torch and Wooglet's Cap.

Blackfire Torch
+250 Health
+70 AP
+20 Magic Penetration
+15% Cooldown Reduction
+Passive Burn

To break down the costs, we can figure out how much each point of statistics is worth. For AP and Health, we can look at the most expensive basic item divided by it's cost.


Giant's Belt - 430 Health - 1110 Gold

This comes out to roughly ~2.58 gold per health.


Needlessly Large Rod - 80 AP - 1600 Gold

This comes out to 20 gold per AP.


Now we need Cooldown Reduction, where the purest form of it comes from Boots.

Boots of Speed - 350 Gold.
+50 Movement Speed

So each point of Movement Speed costs 7 Gold.

Ionian Boots of Lucidity - 1050 Gold.
+70 Movement Speed
+15% Cooldown Reduction

Replacing Movement Speed gives us:

Ionian Boots of Lucidity - 1050 Gold.
+70 (7 Gold) = 490 Gold
+15% Cooldown Reduction

Which leaves 560 Gold for Cooldown Reduction. Each point of Reduction costs ~37.3 Gold.


Similar to Cooldown Reduction, the easiest way to obtain flat Magic Penetration is also boots.


Sorcerer's Shoes - 1100 Gold
+70 Movement Speed
+20 Magic Penetration

Substituting Movement Speed gives us


Sorcerer's Shoes - 1100 Gold
+70 (7 Gold) = 490 Gold
+20 (Magic Penetration)

That leaves 610 Gold for Magic Penetration, giving us about 30.5 Gold per Magic Penetration.

Now, we can combine all of these into the Blackfire Torch, and see how much the Passive costs.

Blackfire Torch - 2950 Gold
+70 (20 Gold) = 1400 Gold
+250 (2.58 Gold) = 645 Gold
+15 (37.3 Gold) = 559.5 Gold
+20 (30.5 Gold) = 610 Gold
+ Passive: Burn

The stats alone amount to 3214.5 Gold, which means you don't pay a thing for the Passive. In fact, the Passive would have a negative value, meaning it's just bonus in an item that's already highly cost efficient for the amount of stats one slot gives. This, compounded with the fact that the AP can be multipled by Masteries and Wooglets, plus having the capacity to sit on a Kage's Lucky Pick, gives an extreme amount of power for relatively little cost.

TL;DR

Torch is hyper cost effective. The stats alone make up for the price, the passive costs nothing, it's a one slot wonder with every stat you could want on a caster. There is currently no reason to rush anything else.

If anyone disagrees with my math, please let me know. I'll do Wooglet's next.

Okay, then your excuse for brutalizer and van damn pillager is? because i'm pretty sure they also ahve engative value passive, Hell Pillager cost 2.5Kas a whole while mages are still sitting o guise waiting for the bft.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Neither item was balanced for S3 though--they were made in isolation, though both should fit in quite well given the similar design direction for all upcoming items.
I am actually curious as to how you will approach mage itemization in S3. Are you going to adjust mage itemization to be more cost efficient like Wooglets/BFT or just add relatively (relative to other mage items, that is) OP items 1 by 1?

I mean, Wooglets/BFT are awesome, even the post nerf BFT will be better than most of the current mage items, but funneling AP casters into using the strongest items because they flat out don't do enough damage otherwise isn't exactly interesting.

Though, then again, the penetration swap could fix the damage problem by itself in conjunction with the mpen aura (or maybe with slight adjustements to the said mpen aura).


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FCFY

Junior Member

11-19-2012

I realize that it's 'going to be fixed in the next patch', but it's really, really annoying that they (Riot) decided to really unbalance a game mode that wasn't exactly popular in the first place in order to help mages. Mages weren't ever weak, their items are just expensive. Now we get to sit for weeks on a patch that turned dominion from fun into annoying and frustrating, because god knows I can't run through my jungle without 50% of my HP being burned.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Yo Nome, what do you think about putting an internal cooldown on BFT like Sheen has, to prevent multiple applications from things like Brand/Teemo/Swain DoTs?

It would definitely tone down the power of the item without really changing any stats.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Halfey, but then if I have 2 single target spells and shoot on two people, nothing.

If the internal cooldown is 3 seconds or shorter, I just re-apply the BFT with the DoT/consistent damage and nothing was lost.

It requires an internal cooldown of more than 3 seconds, and that's quite a butchery to the item.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

11-19-2012

You can have an internal cooldown on per target basis. See Jarvan, Zed, Naut.


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The Bitterness

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post

BFT is already getting a nerf. You knew that! But Wooglet's is not, and I've yet to see a compelling argument for its removal/remake aside from it being too stat-efficient--which is the whole point of the item. It's still built out of NLR, which is a huge chunk of gold you'll need to save up on Dominion (meanwhile, those bruisers have Phage+ already). It was clear with S2 that most mages were unable to compete given SR's level of gold efficiency on their items, so both Wooglet's and BFT are intended to address this issue. Neither item was balanced for S3 though--they were made in isolation, though both should fit in quite well given the similar design direction for all upcoming items.
In a separate thread about BFT, you've agreed that the Dom community recognises several things well ahead of our SR counterparts and mainly because SR has a more PvE-oriented focus while Dom is just the opposite.

You simply cannot contend that BFT is intended to address Mage efficiency issues on SR when the item doesn't currently appear on SR and is causing severe problems on Dominion. Dominion, as you've rightly pointed out in other posts, is a playing field where it's about PvP and gold is a relative non-issue in comparison to SR. This means that Mages in Dom are already in, all things considered, a decent place and introducing BFT grossly upsets that balance.

You also cannot contend that BFT was made in isolation and not, to be fair to your argument, strictly intended for S3. The community has looked at this item and wondered if it saw any real testing because its power is remarkably apparent as soon as it's acquired. It's quite clear that the item was made in isolation and, at the risk of sounding a bit aggressive, there is a body of people wondering if it was even tested. After all, how could such a blatantly over-powered item make it through testing?

Unlike Summoner's Rift, Dominion is about PvP. Don't get me wrong, Summoner's Rift takes its own particular set of skills and I'm not trying to disparage it. What I'm getting at and what you've said yourself is that Dom is really and truly about PvP and BFT is, from what you're saying, an item that is intended for a more PvE-oriented game like Summoner's Rift. In that case there is no reason why BFT should be on Dominion and even less of a reason why we should be waiting for it to be 'nerfed' for Dominion when it doesn't belong and wasn't meant to address Mages on Dominion.


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dragonmyballsz

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Junior Member

11-19-2012

I'm so glad BFT is getting a nerf, teemo and BFT is just ridiculous to play against, spend more time clearing shrooms than playing the game.